How do you avoid collisions with hook turners?

[mirage62 0]

While we have no answers yet in the accident at SDC I believe that the above poll might shed some light on how the non hooking skydivers attempt to avoid collisions with more aggressive canopy pilots.

Let me say that "most" hook turners are careful and considerate of others. Normally when I've seen a close call it's been from a low time hook turner.

For myself, I land father out and walk it in, but it seems that close calls due to hooking are not serious offenses at most dz's. I wonder if this is because of the "supposed" skill level of the hooker. i.e. "well he/she has lot's of jumps so it was okay, nobody got hurt"

I'll close by saying that I am NOT against hook turns, but the attitude of:

1. I MUST swoop in front and as absolutely as close to the beer line as possible.

2. The above plus "I have a little parachute and I'm going to come down faster than you so stay out of my way"

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[BenGriffiths 0]

The Hook Turners are usually the same people that:
a) Open low
b) Have rocket canopys that land well before me anyway
c) Like to land in the spectator area which is tiny - and I don't like to land there anyway

----------
Ben G
Still Sinking :-(

[Michele 1]

Actually, the answer I gave was incomplete...Elsinore has 3 landing areas, and about a billion acres surrounding it so that "where" is not generally a problem.

The swoopers land in the west. The center area is for good canopy pilots (which is not yet me), and the east is for the students. And back off all of that is a ton of open clear space where we can choose to land should the closer options become crowded. I land there a lot, but not always because of choice....sometimes I just arrive there...but I would rather walk a long way with foxtails in my shoes than lay there on the ground needing morphine...or worse.

Close calls, if seen by the S&T or owners are handled well and appropriately. People don't generally get into screaming matches in the landing area or in the packing tent. I myself took a ten minute break - and then did a whole 'nother jump before handling a situation with another jumper...I needed to calm down before I got irish on this person, because I was scared and upset, and I also wanted to see if it repeated. The situation ended well, with both of us learning more about how to handle the problem, and developing a communcation which had not been there before. This is a good result....and yelling in the packing area would not have yielded it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[wmw999 2,456]

Skydiving is a sport; one of the reasons for a sport is exercise, and I figure walking from where it looks safe and uncrowded to land is part of the exercise. Right?

I'm perfectly capable of jumping with a whole lot of people; I just prefer to minimize the number of fast people landing at the same time and the same place I do.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rigging65 0]

How do I avoid collisions with (other) hook turners?

I remind myself that it isn't my right to hook, and that there will always be another jump to hook on. Sometimes you just have to let that one go and just land.

Better to walk a long way than be carried a short way.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[quade 4]

Even at a drop zone with ONE landing area if everyone just followed some simple rules the dangers of a canopy collision on landing approaches would be greatly reduced.

First and foremost -- follow the landing pattern. Different DZs have different methods for setting the landing pattern and may have a method for determining a preferred landing pattern for no wind / low wind conditions. Learn it and follow it.

Next remember that during landing approaches the low person ALWAYS has the right of way. This should be fairly obvious since there is almost no way that they can see you. This is NOT to say that the low person has the right to just whilly-nilly shashay back and forth on short approach, but it is the responsibility of the swooper to not hit the low person no matter what they do. If the swooper isn't sure what the low person is going to do or isn't confidant that he can avoid a collision, it is the responsibility of the swooper to break off the swoop.

As the low person, it makes sense to fly as predictably as possible so that the swoopers don't have to try to read your mind.

Some DZs have their landing areas set up essentially like a runway -- that is to say they're long strips of grass maybe a football field in length and width. This is actually a HUGE area that would enable a very large amount of skydivers to land simultaneously IF everyone just followed the rules and used a little common sense. Some drop zones may prefer that this type of landing area be used a certain way. For instance, landing parallel to the long axis no matter which direction the wind is coming from. If the wind is crosswind to the landing area -- land crosswind! Cutting diagonally across a landing area in an attempt to land directly into the wind makes it incredibly difficult for people to predict where you'll be on a landing area like this.

Lastly, think of the landing area in several sections. For instance, if you're on the east side of the landing area flying downwid and setting up a normal pattern, it may not make a whole lot of sense for you to take your base leg all the way over to the west side of the landing area. If you're in the middle of the pack of folks landing, this is almost certainly going to cutoff someone. It might make more sense for you to land on the east edge of the landing area even if it means you'll have to walk slightly farther.

All of this stuff may seem pretty obvious, but you'd be amazed to see how little attention people pay to stuff like this.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

a) Open low

Doubtful.

Almost everyone I know with high performance canopies don't like deploying below 3k-3.5k. Simple because shit can go wrong very very fast under those kinds of canopies.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[heftee 0]

I am a low # jumper - 150 jumps - and I learned something new this past weekend. I'm on a newbie 8-way formation team, so we all have huge canopies and come in nice, long, and straight as we don't yet do any kind of turns on final.
Several weeks ago, the logistics of why those w/ HP canopies come "cutting across our pattern" was explained to us - it made perfect sense. I won't begin to explain it as I could get it wrong. Perhaps someone else here can. But, it made sense. It's not that they are cutting us off - it has to do with how the pattern a HP canopy is different than ours.
The new thing that I learned this weekend was from our camera person - he pulls higher than we do but has a HP canopy. I used to ride in on half breaks to enjoy more time up there, but he explained that we should not be doing this. Basically, because our wing loading is so much different than his, he is coming down faster than us and will be going through us even though we fell 1500 more in freefall than he. Again, I can't do it justice...but, it is physically impossible for him on his HP canopy to stay above us and wait for us to land - he is coming in fast. And, in order to land with intact femurs, he has to gain a certain amount of speed to get the proper lift to land, and he can't do that coming in like we do etc...So, me hanging in half brakes just makes the situation worse - which I now no longer do since he explained this to me.
Anyway, perhaps someone better educated on the exacts of this can explain better that they are not "cutting us off in our landing pattern" - they are doing what they have to and what their canopies need to land safely.
I'll try to ask that person who explained it to us to jump on here when she has some time.
Thanks for listening - I hope this didn't confuse things.

-------------------------
"If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane."
David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel)

[quade 4]

Perhaps he's correct, but my guess is that your camera flyer could fly his entire pattern is such a way as to never be an issue at all. It has nothing to do with him flying a canopy that decends faster, it has to do with him flying his canopy in areas that make sense and avoid the traditional downwind, base and final of the slower canopies.

The sky is pretty big and if we all use it intelligently, there's more than enough room for everyone.

Also, if anyone has to hook a canopy in order to land it safely -- then maybe it's not all that safe to begin with. I'd wager his canopy could, in fact, be landed perfectly safe straight in with no hook or any excessive speed at all.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,006]

> And, in order to land with intact femurs, he has to gain a certain
> amount of speed to get the proper lift to land, and he can't do that
> coming in like we do etc.

This is simply not true. Every modern canopy out there can be landed with a straight in, long-final approach. If he can't land his canopy via a straight in approach he needs to work on that.

I have often heard the "But I can't land straight in!" excuse to justify why someone simply must hook turn (or carve, or do 'just a 90' or whatever.) I do such manuevers as well when I have the room - but I always have the option of aborting and landing straight ahead.

>He was out of the sport for a while due to a pretty serious landing injury . . .

Sounds like he could use some work on canopy control.

[skydive84 0]

I think the way things are done at perris is a good example. In the grass landing area only 2 directions parallel to runway. Follow 1st person down, regardless of wind direction. If you dont feel you have the ability/want to land in heavy cross/down wind. Then there is a whole load of extra landing space you are free to use, youve just gotta walk that extra 50 yards. With everyone who is landing on the tighter grass area going the same way possibility for collisions is pretty limited.
Adi

[quade 4]

Quote

I think the way things are done at perris is a good example.

I was trying to not name names, but yes, if everyone follows the rules at Perris, it's a pretty good system.

However, there's almost always room for improvement.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Faber 0]

In Dk we make(normaly)lefthand finals.in near nil wind the first jumper(who is landing)desides which way to land,the rest will follow even if it means to land in abit downwind(not talking hurrycane here but 2m/s and down after).On larger boogies we have up to 3 landingplaces.Hookturners,nonstudents,and students areas,ofcours your alowed to land in an area lower your skill(but in the way the area requires,meaning no hookturns outs side that area),and still not meaning that students get troubles(they also normaly stay up there awhile).This way we avoid most cases were it could be a problem.Not folloing the rule and your ass will get grounded.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[riddler 0]

Quote

The Hook Turners are usually the same
people that:
a) Open low
c) Like to land in the spectator area

Completely disagree with this. People that hook are generally the same as other skydivers. Yes, there are some extreme ones that disregard safety, but those are the minority. It takes a lot of skill and practice to perform hook turns, and those that choose to do it are usually as safety oriented, and many of them MORE safety oriented than the average jumper. I should state that I do not swoop or hook.

As far as avoiding them, as well as all other pilots, I intentionally land away from the main landing area. This doesn't mean I let my guard down, but I think it decreases my odds of any canopy collision. Yes, I have to walk a little further, but it's not as long as the ride to the hospital.

At the first meeting of the Colorado Canopy Pilots Association, it was proposed that the 1,000 foot no-fly zone over the runway be extended to include the high-performance landing area for non-swoopers (which is not far from the runway). It seems like a good idea to me to give the swoopers their own place to play. We will see how it works at Mile-Hi.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[firstime 0]

Good words of wisdom, you said it all.

[mirage62 0]

"It takes a lot of skill and practice to perform hook turns, and those that choose to do it are usually as safety oriented, and many of them MORE safety oriented than the average jumper. "

I'm not sure about the above statement. I believe that people that have been swooping for a longer period of time generally are very careful but you do see a lot of beginners who are "learning" to hook that lack the judgement and skill to achieve the desired results.

From a pure numbers point of view and NOT to put ANYONE down. The sheer number of low time hook turners that get hurt shows that the person did not have the judgement/skill to be doing the manuver. If they lack the the above skill would that be an indication that they might not be as careful of others airspace as one might like?

Just my thoughts.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[sundevil777 102]

I've always disliked the 'first down sets the landing direction' rule.

What if:

1) Several are landing at the same time 'first' in different directions, which is right?

2) The first down does a low hook turn, and you are a few hundred feet higher, must you now turn also?

3) The first down likes doing downwinders and the winds are now actually significant (might not have been on takeoff), must I do a downwinder?

4) I am looking out for other canopies around me, and I don't notice the landing direction of the first down?

I like the use of a tetrahedron like at Richmond Indiana (edit - most larger municipal airports have one), or even a large tarp with an arrow that is set manually by someone on the ground rather than follow the first jumper.

Even DZ's like Eloy and Perris that have long, narrow strips of grass could benefit from a visual aid to remind novices and jumpers from 'out of town' which way is the established direction if you want to land on the grass.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Tonto 1]

Now that seems a little like prejidice...

I like to hook, but I open right after my AFF student, so that puts me at about 4000ft. I then hang back on the brakes till everyone but my student is down, and then land in the pro rated student area.

If there is traffic I can't avoid, I abort a hook aproach and land normally.

I jump a Stilleto 107 loaded to 1.7 and my DZ is 5000 ASL. We operate a Porter so max per load is 10.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[billvon 3,006]

>1) Several are landing at the same time 'first' in different directions,
>which is right?

The first one down. The first jumpers down have to use some common sense here of course, but it's rare to see the first 2-3 jumpers (typically those under the smallest canopies) land at the same time, at least on a typical load (20 people or so.)

>The first down does a low hook turn, and you are a few hundred feet
>higher, must you now turn also?

Only if you want to land in the 'main' area. If you don't you are free to land off the main area in your own direction.

>The first down likes doing downwinders and the winds are now
> actually significant (might not have been on takeoff), must I do a
> downwinder?

Again, only if you want to land in the main area. I would hope that the S+TA would have a talk with that jumper after he landed, and that would solve the problem.

>I am looking out for other canopies around me, and I don't notice
>the landing direction of the first down?

Winds can change; you have to be able to watch the ground and other canopies at the same time. Besides, if you miss the first guy's landing, just watch the second.

>I like the use of a tetrahedron like at Richmond Indiana (edit - most
> larger municipal airports have one), or even a large tarp with an
> arrow that is set manually by someone on the ground rather than
> follow the first jumper.

I once watched half a dozen people turn very low and land in the opposite direction, into other jumpers that were landing, because the tetrahedron at Quincy swung 180 in light winds. The tarp thing is a good idea, or even a preset landing direction - but any time you have a rule that says "you have to land into the wind" or "you have to land according to the wind sock" you're going to run into problems in light winds.

[dragon2 2]

[replyI once watched half a dozen people turn very low and land in the opposite direction, into other jumpers that were landing, because the tetrahedron at Quincy swung 180 in light winds.

Quote

I liked what I saw at Empuria: the tetrahedron (is that the metal turning T thing?) was chained down in light winds, in an appropriate direction (the landing field there is a large grass strip right next to the runway, so there's 2 prefered landing directions; along the long sides).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

• Quote

[rhino 0]

Quote

The Hook Turners are usually the same people that:
a) Open low
b) Have rocket canopys that land well before me anyway
c) Like to land in the spectator area which is tiny - and I don't like to land there anyway

WRONGOOOOOOO..

I ALLWAYS open high.. NEVER below 3k. Normally above 4,500 feet.

I normally hold and land last or right before the tandems.

Spectator areas can be tiny but normally are the main landing areas.

Rhino

[sducoach 0]

First of all, please define a "hook turn". I do not perform "hooks", I do a 180 degree carve and set up just like any other canopy pilot flying a downwind, base, and final. Mine is simply a tighter pattern.

Second, most HiPo Pilots know a hook is not required to achieve the speed we are looking for. I have witnessed several people "hook it" without regard to other canopies and it's mostly an "attitude" not an "altitude" problem.

Third, I open no lower than 3K and usually at 3.5K and am very difficult to live with when someone like yourself opens low.

Fourth, my V107 floats very well and many times I have hung out watching a Sabre 230 land before me. If you truly know how to fly your canopy you know how to use all ranges of the performance envelop. Knowledge equals power, power equals performance.

Fifth, separate landing areas are the best way to go. If you are Pro rated, land in the spectator area, if you are a skydiver like I am, land in a safe area. It sounds like you will be landing with me in most cases.

Six, just like an airplane, car, boat, or any other vehicle, we have blind spots. Know where they are and take the effort to check them before you do anything. Not just swoops or hooks, even when you fly the standard pattern.

If I plan a swoop landing and for traffic, altitude, wind, people on the ground, or ANY other obstacle, I fly a standard pattern and land my "rocket" just fine straight in.

Please seek some training under your canopy and suggest to those "hookers" to do the same and we all will be much safer. Scott Miller is one of the best. Contact him through PD's web page.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[nacmacfeegle 0]

How do I avoid collisions with other jumpers?

Keep my head on a swivvel.
Keep an eye out for people I know are going to be doing HP landings.
Keep my head on a swivvel.
Keep an eye out for newbies.
Keep my head on a swivvel.
Avoid s-turns, sashays, and other unpredictable manoeuvers on final approach.
Keep my head on a swivvel.
Land off the swoop lanes, don't cross the swoop lanes, stay out of the pond approaches etc.
Keep my head on a swivvel.
Fly an agreed pattern, normally a left hander.
Keep my head on a swivvel.
Know how to flat turn, land downwind, crosswind, and sink it in.
Keep my head on a swivvel.
Communicate with the swoopers, they aren't demons, just ask them where they will be landing, and stay well out their way.
Keep my head on a swivvel.

I can do all this and still get hit, but at least I like to think I'm doing everything reasonably practical to avoid a low level collision.

And when walking back in, keep my head on a swivvel......Its not over till I'm re-packed...

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

I do a 180 degree carve and set up just like any other canopy pilot flying a downwind, base, and final. Mine is simply a tighter pattern.

I do the same thing. Being the newbie that I am, I have discovered that this is the best way to stay out of everyone's way by avoiding long crosswinds and S-turns on final.

I also use my larger canopy to my advantage to land after the others, and I usually land on the far end of the landing area.

As for following the first jumper, that is the rule. But, if the first jumper downwinds or the wind changes, we are encouraged use our own judgment and land safely.

[robskydiv 0]

On the "small" dropzones where I jump, the hook turners stay away from the others and vice versa. There is mutual respect, and so far it's worked out great.