Response to Wing load BSR

[cloud9 0]

Well on the surface its sounds just to good to be true. Because it is. Lets get real how about everyone post what injuries occured on their DZ in the last 12 months and what the jump numbers vs wing loading was. I think that most of you will be surprised, my bet is students under lightly loaded canopies and very experienced jumpers under heavily loaded canopies, and not so many mid time jumpers, as always seems to be stated.

My DZ in the last 12 months
1. 4th jump student off field landing, failure to flair broken leg.
2. 80 jumps hook turn falcon loaded at about 1.1 compound fracture of tib fib and many other breaks and bruises.

Now how about an honest report from other DZ's
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[Kris 0]

Nope. I can't agree with that.

At some of the larger turbine DZ's I have been to, I have seen more than a couple of low-time jumpers under wings too small for their skill-level break themselves.

You can't make a blanket statement based on experience at one DZ and you really can't lump students in because students will find a way to break themselves if you let them. Trust me. Incident #1 you listed proves my point on that. The trick is to not let them have the chance to hurt themselves if you can at all avoid it.

Spend some time at other DZ's and see how the downsize-frenzy / acceptance vibe differs from your own. You might be surprised.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Ron 10]

I could not even list the # of injuries at Zhill in the last 12 mths....

I know that the ones I got blood on my hands were ALL people with 100-600 jumps.

The 600 jumps guy died, but it was I think part turbulance part toggle input that spun him up.

One guy with a couple thousand jumps comited suicide, so I don't count that one.

One guy with 400-500 jumps hit the bunker.

One guy with 100 jumps flew a 1.5 canopy into the ground without a flare.

One guy with ~600 jumps? Turned to miss a cow...But this guy just came back from another low turn injury.

These are just the ones I can remember...know why?

Because unless I am running to stop the flow of blood, I really don't take notice anymore....It happens too much.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[cloud9 0]

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Nope. I can't agree with that.

At some of the larger turbine DZ's I have been to, I have seen more than a couple of low-time jumpers under wings too small for their skill-level break themselves.

Sorry Kris but I just see you feeding the frenzy. Lets not go with anything but real facts and then see how the chips fall. I'm not promoting high wing loadings for low timer, I would just love to see the truth out there. The USPA has already said most landing injuries were experienced jumpers last year. What is the real world drop zones showing.
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[Ron 10]

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The USPA has already said most landing injuries were experienced jumpers last year.

Yep, but they also consider someone with 100 jumps to be experienced.

I have seen some reports where they call anyone with any license "experienced".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BMFin 0]

If anyone is intrested here is a Accident / Experience chart from finland.

Choose page 20 !

[markbaur 0]

From your post, we know at Z-hills there are some number of injuries and fatalities in the 100-600 jump group. What proportion of the jumps made at Z-hills are made by this group? Can you say statistically that their injury/fatality rate is out of proportion to the number of jumps they make?

As a "destination" DZ, do you think Z-hills attracts the kind of jumper who is more likely to hurt himself?

What kind of peer pressure do you and your friends exert? What kind of management support do you get?

Can you think of ways short of regulations that would accomplish your goals?

Mark

[Ron 10]

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What proportion of the jumps made at Z-hills are made by this group? Can you say statistically that
their injury/fatality rate is out of proportion to the number of jumps they make?

Nope infact I would say that the 100-600 jump range is probley the largest skydiving group.

Number of Members by Total Jump Numbers according to the USPA:

0-25 -- 21.3%
26-250 -- 33.0%
250+ -- 45.7

So over half of all jumpers in the USPA have less than 250 jumps.

But what I will add that while 200-600 jumps may be close to the largest segment....But this group also has the largest INCREASE in the rate of fatalities over the past few years...

Yes, it makes sense that the largest segment will have the most fatalities...Just as the US will have more than say Mexico due to the larger jump numbers...But the fact that this segment has seen an increase in fatalities over the last few years is very indicative of a problem.

As someone pointed out even just from 2001 to 2002 there was a very large increase in fatalities in just this group.

See the logic now?

Why would ONLY this group have a rising incident rate?

Answer is because they are getting canopies that this group was unable to get before....And they think that they are better educated than this group before them...Then why are they dying more?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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If anyone is intrested here is a Accident / Experience chart from finland.

Choose page 20 !

Interesting but because the experience bin sizes are different (and we don't know the total number of active skydivers at each experience level) it's still impossible to draw much of a conclusion.

It is most unfortunate that we don't have adequate data to do a proper analysis. When FAA published its NPRM for the FAR Part 105 revision a couple of years ago, it incorporated a provision for accident reporting. The skydiving community vehemently opposed this provision, and it was dropped from the final rule. Shame on us.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhino 0]

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I could not even list the # of injuries at Zhill in the last 12 mths....

Loading canopies too heavily isn't the problem.

I watched more people at Perris just fly into the ground this last weekend than I have ever seen. Only using 1/3 of their flair capacity. Or not even that. Most of these people just don't know how to flare properly. They don't know the slow speed flight of their canopies.

Rhino

[Ron 10]

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Loading canopies too heavily isn't the problem.

I watched more people at Perris just fly into the ground this last weekend than I have ever seen. Only
using 1/3 of their flair capacity. Or not even that. Most of these people just don't know how to flare
properly. They don't know the slow speed flight of their canopies.

So they would be better under smaller canopies?...

Or is it that they don't have the right training?...Funny, I remember from my FJC almost 10 years ago to do a full flair...Don't they teach people to flair anymore?

Or is it that some people just don't get it no matter how much they are told?

Careful, you are about to argue my point for me.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Joyner 0]

Quote

Quote

I could not even list the # of injuries at Zhill in the last 12 mths....

Loading canopies too heavily isn't the problem.

I watched more people at Perris just fly into the ground this last weekend than I have ever seen. Only using 1/3 of their flair capacity. Or not even that. Most of these people just don't know how to flare properly. They don't know the slow speed flight of their canopies.

Rhino

And those same people should be allowed to get what ever cannopy they want???? If they can't flair a lightly loaded cannopy, do you think they can hook, swoop, and flair a heavily loaded one?

This statement only makes the regulation point even stronger! I'm all for it. I live in Sweden were we have similar regulations. People have accepted them, I have accepted them. I'm at just under 500 jumps, and I have absolutely no problem with these rules!

I have also seen many half bad to lousy flairs just today by low timers (shifting winds). And knowing that those same people are not allowed to get a 2:1 loaded eliptical the next jump, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling!

[rhino 0]

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So they would be better under smaller canopies?...

No what I am pointing out is ROOT CAUSE..

Simple..

Rhino

[rhino 0]

nope nope nope!! Stop putting words in my mouth...

Root cause!!! Canopy training needs to be MUCH MUCH better in AFF!!!

Rhino

[cloud9 0]

Not one statment made so far supports a need for regulation. Facts, Facts, Facts will support it if its needed. How ever the facts so far show there is not a problem. I have yet to see even one person post about a low timer on a highly loaded canopy frapping in. If it aint broke don't fix it.

As far as USPA saying that someone with 100 jumps is experienced maybe so. But the facts are last year the average jump number for a landing fatality was over 1000 jumps! Most of the low timers being injured and killed under canopy are not loading very heavy, most are under a 1.2

[skybytch 273]

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I have yet to see even one person post about a low timer on a highly loaded canopy frapping in.

300ish. 1.5+. Nasty tib/fib. Still limping a year later, won't be back in the air anytime soon.

250ish. 1.5+. Femur and face. Jumping again after over a year and a half.

Then there's a guy who posts here, 200ish jumps, Xaos at 1.6+, femurs and hips.

[Ron 10]

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Canopy training needs to be MUCH MUCH better in AFF!!!

why? Its not AFF students hooking it in..Its guys with 300 jumps that think they can handle it...If anything there would need to be a class at 250 jumps....But I don't think that alone is the answer either...The first thing that needs to happen is that these guys really need to know they are over their heads.

Several times I have gone up to a guy that just pulled a landing out of his ass, and told him so...At which point I get told I don't know what I am talking about.

(My favorite part of this is when I point out that I have almost 3,000 jumps in 10 years on things from a T10 to a 69 extreme (2.6 to 1 back in 96), and my shoes have more jumps than they do.)

At which point they tell me that I am just trying to hold them back because I am afraid that they will be better than me.

??!?!?!?!?!

Ah OK....Yeah, thats what I am trying to do.

But I am an evil person cause I am limiting their personal freedom.

Here is a secret...I listen to everybody...And if a guy walks up to me and tells me I was low...Guess what? I was period.

And if a guy with 3,001 jumps or 11 years in the sport tells me something, I listen...

Most 300 jump "wonders" don't....Because they are better than the "others" who did what they did and died.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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But the facts are last year
the average jump number for a landing fatality was over 1000 jumps! Most of the low timers being injured
and killed under canopy are not loading very heavy, most are under a 1.2

OK where are your FACTS?

I don't agree with them.

Show me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

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OK where are your FACTS?

I was puzzled by this one too, so I looked....

from www.skydivingfatalities.info
for 2002, in the US, average jumps for LANDING and HOOK/LOW TURN deaths was 682 (well, 682.94 if you care)

For the whole world (including the US) on the same paramaters, 867.4

Remster

[rhino 0]

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why? Its not AFF students hooking it in..

Wrong...

Getting them aware of canopy flight from day one will prevent future hook ins..

I don't listen to everyone. Especially where canopy flight is concerned. I listen to people that are where I want to be. That is a basic principal of success..

Rhino

[billvon 2,991]

>No what I am pointing out is ROOT CAUSE..

I agree. The problem is that their response to the problem now is to get a smaller canopy. That often results in their serious injury or death. Canopy education is one way to help prevent their deaths. Having a mandatory progression they can 'opt out of' with a canopy control course can help get them that education.

[billvon 2,991]

>I have yet to see even one person post about a low timer on a
>highly loaded canopy frapping in. If it aint broke don't fix it.

2 guys we tried to stop from Brown:
-1 under a Batwing around 1.5 to 1. 150 jumps or so. Broken thumb, then broken arm.
-1 under a Stiletto around 1.6 to 1. Just under 200 jumps. Will never walk normally again after a broken pelvis.

[rhino 0]

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The problem is that their response to the problem now is to get a smaller canopy.

Exactly which problem are you referring to?

[billvon 2,991]

>Canopy training needs to be MUCH MUCH better in AFF!!!

If you mean that _student_ canopy training needs to be much better I agree. There's only so much you can teach in the AFF timeframe (7 jumps.)

[Ron 10]

Yes but break it down:

135 Panic turn to avoid an object
270 hook turn
521 collapsed canopy...I would not count this as a "Landing" more like "Malfunction"
200 Hook
275 Hook
201 Panic
1500 Hook
500 no info CT.
170 Hook
160 Hook
800 Medical..This jumper did not try to control her canopy at all during the decent.

I would take out the Collapsed canopy Has nothing to do with landing...It was spun up. And the medical she never even released the toggles.

379 would then be the average. This is even with the guy with 1500 jumps.

Even if you just look at the ones that were hook turns not panic turns.

429

Anyone have info on the guy with 500 jumps in CT?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334