Response to Wing load BSR

[billvon 2,991]

>>The problem is that their response to the problem now is to get a smaller canopy.

>Exactly which problem are you referring to?

The problem that they can't land. Their response is to downsize in an attempt to get better landings - at least until they get hurt.

[rhino 0]

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If you mean that _student_ canopy training needs to be much better I agree. There's only so much you can teach in the AFF timeframe (7 jumps.)

understood.. Lengthen AFF to 20 jumps. Make the last 10 canopy control and only canopy control. Make them demonstrate slow speed flight, flat turns, things that will save their ass. Make them clear and pulls from 12k.

That is what I mean.

Rhino

[Remster 30]

Fair enough Ron.. I was going with the raw data, without any persoanl input. I still though that a 600 to 800 jumps range for an average was not very high. On top of that, I screwed up my number.. appologies all!

raw average for US only 430

Remster

[billvon 2,991]

>understood.. Lengthen AFF to 20 jumps. Make the last 10 canopy
> control and only canopy control. Make them demonstrate slow speed
> flight, flat turns, things that will save their ass.

We sort of have that now, in the form of the ISP. We just have to _do_ it. Does your DZ? Out here Perris makes a good effort as does Elsinore. Otay does not.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Lengthen AFF to 20 jumps. Make the last 10 canopy control and only canopy control. Make them demonstrate slow speed flight, flat turns, things that will save their ass. Make them clear and pulls from 12k.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just don't see lengthening the AFF course happening. For sure everyone should be taught and then practice slow flight and flat turns. Slow flight is taught to airplane pilots so why not canopy pilots. I was forced to use my slow flight skills yestderday while flying a Cessna 172 (some guy needed to cut in front of me while I was on downwind in the pattern and without even thinking about how to do it, there I was flying along at 70 knots maintaining 1k AGL). But I digress ... I would love to see more canopy control course opportunities for every one at anytime in their skydiving career. But they are just few and far between. One thing is for sure, anyone (regardless of experience) who flies a highly loaded canopy has a much smaller margin for error and we should not be all that surprised when shit happens.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[cloud9 0]

Well there has now been a few post with some injuries, however still some of them years ago not in the last year. And how many experienced jumpers were injured in the same time frame.
As far as the figure of an average 1000 jumps it came out of parachutist magazine but I'm at work and don't have my old copy here.
I agree that low timers shouldn't be jumping high wing loadings I just see no reason on earth to regulate it when the DZ should do that and there really isn't much of a problem.
I was reading a 1985 parachutist the other day and the letters in it were the same people being killed under good canopies the majority of folks wanted to ban hook turns. Now aren't you glad they didn't?
Another surprise a lot of the gear in 1985 was more expensive then today.

[sarge 0]

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Lengthen AFF to 20 jumps

Or why not call it AFP, and use that format? As long as we're just talking about adressing the issues of the 3-500 jumper at the training level.

The AFP program is vastly superior to AFF in developing not only free-fall basic skills but canopy skills as well! IMO!!

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[skybytch 273]

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The AFP program is vastly superior to AFF in developing not only free-fall basic skills but canopy skills as well! IMO!!

We already have a program in place that teaches canopy skills. It's called the ISP. If every dz were following it we might not be seeing the number of low timer injuries that we are now.

How long ago was the ISP introduced?

That, my friends, is why "education" ain't gonna solve this problem anytime soon.

[kallend 2,027]

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Yes but break it down:

135 Panic turn to avoid an object
270 hook turn
521 collapsed canopy...I would not count this as a "Landing" more like "Malfunction"
200 Hook
275 Hook
201 Panic
1500 Hook
500 no info CT.
170 Hook
160 Hook
800 Medical..This jumper did not try to control her canopy at all during the decent.

I would take out the Collapsed canopy Has nothing to do with landing...It was spun up. And the medical she never even released the toggles.

379 would then be the average. This is even with the guy with 1500 jumps.

Even if you just look at the ones that were hook turns not panic turns.

429

Anyone have info on the guy with 500 jumps in CT?

Ron

The "1500 Hook" was found by the medical examiner to have all kinds of stuff in his system, sufficient to cause impairment. If you want to attribute a cause, I wouldn't put this one down to inappropriate wing loading, but to inappropriate ingestion of chemicals.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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The "1500 Hook" was found by the medical examiner to have all kinds of stuff in his system, sufficient to
cause impairment. If you want to attribute a cause, I wouldn't put this one down to inappropriate wing
loading, but to inappropriate ingestion of chemicals.

Yeah John, I knew about that, but didn't want to seem like I was trying to make the #'s look better by picking which to report....

So if you take out the guy with 1,500 jumps that was stoned.

The Average number of jumps for hook turns (not panic turns) last year is 315....

Anyone see the issue?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[livendive 8]

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My DZ in the last 12 months
1. 4th jump student off field landing, failure to flair broken leg.
2. 80 jumps hook turn falcon loaded at about 1.1 compound fracture of tib fib and many other breaks and bruises.

Now how about an honest report from other DZ's
/
/

We didn't have any significant injuries in the past 12 months, but here's what we've had in the past 4 years:

110 jumps, wingloading ~1.2, tried to stand-up a no-flare, tib-fibbed both legs

500 jumps, 1.3:1 Stiletto, low turn (not intentional hook), shattered heel

4 jumps, wingloading ~.8:1 student canopy, landed on hangar roof then fell off and broke both heels

400 jumps, off dz landing (in town), hit dog kennel and was taken to hospital by ambulance for cut on chin

130 jumps, off dz landing in town (same load), got caught in powerlines and cut away, falling ~10 feet and landing on his back. Slight neck/back injury.

15 jumps, wingloading ~.8:1, student flared late and picked up his legs, landing tailbone first and compressing a disc

900 jumps, wingloading 2.3:1 EXTreme, low maneuvers following hook, dislocated shoulder

500 jumps, wingloading 1:1, ragged out canopy (stratocloud I think), broken ankle.

and one of our jumpers while away on vacation in Europe...80 jumps, borrowed a stiletto 120 (~1.2:1), low-turn into wind, broke tib/fib & ankle.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[skybytch 273]

Copied from a post by jiggs in the incidents forum today -

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Jumper: 22 year old male, Sabre 150 with a wingloading of approximately 1.4. This was his 249th jump, he is pretty current with over 100 jumps since the start of the year. There was 2 other jumpers on the load (myself and an old timer who was pretty uncurrent). The plan was for Frottage (known as SkyMick here) to exit first to be followed by myself and then the old guy at staggered intervals and at staggered heights to give each other a bit more room and space (according to flying style and wingloading)

Exit from around 3.5k, Frottage opened after about a 10 second delay, waited awhile then had a 5 second delay, the final jumper was supposed to exit last and pop pretty quickly. Instead he could not located his handle for some time and managed to have something like a 12 second delay. He opened lowest and was the slowest under canopy. Odd approach to landing area and managed to cut in front of Frottage towards finals. Frottage then gave the other jumper a fair bit of room but thought he had allowed enough for his own approach; he commenced a very late and low 180 turn (with toggle) and did not complete the turn. He landed feet first then back, Injury fractured veterbrae of the lower back. He can move his legs but he will not be able to walk or even sit down for the next 6 weeks. He will be operated on shortly and will be released in the next 10 days or so.

[AndyMan 7]

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Now how about an honest report from other DZ's

Chicagoland has had one - a very experienced jumper from a different DZ screwed up his hook on his first jump after a 3 year haitus under a very highly loaded eliptical.

He ended up getting airlifted out with complete paralysis. A month later he is now able to wiggle his fingers.

Anyone want to count the mistakes this poor guy made?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Michele 1]

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We already have a program in place that teaches canopy skills. It's called the ISP. If every dz were following it we might not be seeing the number of low timer injuries that we are now.

How long ago was the ISP introduced?

That, my friends, is why "education" ain't gonna solve this problem anytime soon.

So, if there is one already, and it was introduced some time ago, why are the DZ's not teaching it?

Lack of instructors? Lack of profit for the DZ? Competition between DZ's (Joe doesn't do it, so I won't, either...) and thus a loss of possible draw for higher paying students? Longer instruction time?

Why?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[livendive 8]

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How long ago was the ISP introduced?

A year and a half? Two years? In any case, not that long ago.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,991]

>Lack of instructors? Lack of profit for the DZ? Competition between
> DZ's (Joe doesn't do it, so I won't, either...) and thus a loss of
> possible draw for higher paying students? Longer instruction time?

I think the primary reason is that you don't have to do it. Students don't want to spend the time and effort, schools don't want to staff for a demand that may not exist, and DZO's don't want to explain to students why it takes 25 jumps to get off student status at their DZ's, but only 7 jumps at Joe's DZ.

[ladyskydiver 0]

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think the primary reason is that you don't have to do it. Students don't want to spend the time and effort, schools don't want to staff for a demand that may not exist, and DZO's don't want to explain to students why it takes 25 jumps to get off student status at their DZ's, but only 7 jumps at Joe's DZ.

Well...couldn't they use the fact it takes 25 jumps at their DZ vs. 7 at Joe's as a bonus? As in...we care about your safety and ensuring you're in the sport for the long haul?

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[mustard 0]

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So, if there is one already, and it was introduced some time ago, why are the DZ's not teaching it?

Lack of instructors? Lack of profit for the DZ? Competition between DZ's (Joe doesn't do it, so I won't, either...) and thus a loss of possible draw for higher paying students? Longer instruction time?

Why?

Oh boy, here I go again! (plunge)

All of the above. I work at 3 DZs, and one of them has implemented the ISP, using the 4-page card (Front Range Skydivers). FRS took the time and energy, and we worked together to get it in place last year. I used it all last summer there, and really saw how much it changed things up there.

But the other two DZs have also made some significant changes to accommodate the requirements of the ISP, more training, etc. The problem is this: how does a coach with 100 jumps begin to teach a non-licensed skydiver canopy skills when he/she never was taught them and never learned themselves?

This is the gap we face today. People are learning canopy skills slowly but surely. The ISP has incorporated canopy flight into the A-license card, but they are minimal, they are not the equivalent of a canopy control class.

This gap will become less partly because of the passion and desire of people like Ron, Michele, billvon, etc., to see it change. But right now we have the blind leading the blind at some DZs. I know. I was one of the blind ones, and when I had a thousand jumps, I had students asking me to teach them how to fly their canopies. I sent them elsewhere, because *I* had not learned yet. After a thousand jumps! I figured out what worked most of the time and stayed within those boundaries.

When I was injured in 2000, those six months recovering from an injury that wasn't necessary if I had known what to do, I made a vow. I would help others learn how to fly their canopies. I said I would return to skydiving and learn how to fly my own.

I am a much better pilot today than I was then. I know how to teach people to experiment safely with the flight characteristics of their canopy. I am anxious to attend Scott Miller's class.

This is part of the "education" I was talking about earlier. We cannot force people to learn, but we can offer guidelines and field test them. We can help somebody like me not to be broken in order to learn what they need to know.

***
DJan

[billvon 2,991]

>Well...couldn't they use the fact it takes 25 jumps at their DZ vs. 7 at Joe's as a bonus?

I've had this exact conversation with students. It's one of the reason Brown switched from an 8 to a 7 jump AFF program (despite my resistance to that.)

"So you have to make 8 jumps here, right? And they're like $140 bucks a piece, right, before you can jump on your own?"

"Yes, but we have an extra level that covers some basic RW skills like tracking, fall rate control, stuff like that."

"But Elsinore is only 7 jumps, and then you can jump on your own, right?"

[Ron 10]

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This is part of the "education" I was talking about earlier. We cannot force people to learn, but we can
offer guidelines and field test them. We can help somebody like me not to be broken in order to learn what
they need to know.

Yes, this is the goal. This was a very well written post.

We can also protect the people that want to learn canopy flight, so that they can.

I have a saying I use all the time.

"You can jump whatever canopy you want, as long as you live through the one you jump now."

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zenister 0]

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Yes, this is the goal. This was a very well written post.

We can also protect the people that want to learn canopy flight, so that they can.

education and reduced injuries is a goal i think everyone can support.

protecting people from themselves is not.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ron 10]

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education and reduced injuries is a goal i think everyone can support.

protecting people from themselves is not.

What if it takes one to get the other..

And another thing..I see you reply to me, and only say negative things ever...Over several posts on several topics.

Did I piss in your corn flakes or something? You seem to have an issue with me.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,447]

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"So you have to make 8 jumps here, right? And they're like $140 bucks a piece, right, before you can jump on your own?"
"Yes, but we have an extra level that covers some basic RW skills like tracking, fall rate control, stuff like that."
"But Elsinore is only 7 jumps, and then you can jump on your own, right?"

Yup. This is so true. Just as everyone is an above-average canopy pilot, everyone can learn this stuff on their own. After all, there are a whole lot of jumpers out there (many of them really really good) who never did this stuff and got good anyway. Especially since we have this self-reliance is best thing in the US that makes asking for help a sign of failure to many.

Money matters, even (or maybe especially) in an expensive sport. They have to perceive the additional value in what you're selling -- it doesn't matter if you do.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Zenister 0]

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education and reduced injuries is a goal i think everyone can support.

protecting people from themselves is not.

What if it takes one to get the other..

than let people chose to hurt themselves if they wish...if you offer the education, the information and the opportunity to learn and they still dont listen and think they can do it on their own??

Oh well... hopefully the divot they make will inspire others not to remain so ignorant.

self determination is more important than safety.

particularly since we will never agree from one person to the next what "safe" really is

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,991]

>than let people chose to hurt themselves if they wish...if you offer
> the education, the information and the opportunity to learn and they
> still dont listen and think they can do it on their own??

Would you be OK with a 19 year old woman showing up at a DZ, declining a FJC, and doing a 2-way with her 20 jump boyfriend for her first jump? Suppose you explain it's dangerous, and she's willing to take the chance - would you be OK with it then?