Zenister 0 #51 June 3, 2003 well of course you can abstract any situtation to the ridiculous, but honestly yes. if your that stupid, oh well, more O2 for those who arent, or chose not to remain so...unfortunately our liability culture "its NOT MY FAULT! im gonna sue!" wouldnt permit that, but i would much rather skydiving ( and the american culture in general) put its foot down about personal responsibility when it comes to canopy choices, rather than bow to the continual pressure to regulate the risk (and responsibility) out of everything in life... i should be able to sign away any legal responsibility anyone ELSE might have for my actions.. isnt that what the waiver is for?? death and injury are bad things in that they prevent you from continuing whatever activity you chose, however its my life and limbs to risk, if you've warned me, if youve pointed to all the training available and made sure i understand the risk (via waiver etc..) you are no longer responsible for anything that happens, just as i am not responsible for any emotional response you might have as the results of my actions.. i would treat the situation you describe the same way i treated all the "hey yall watch this" stunts i've seen, that i knew were going to end tragically after they'd been warned about how stupid it was.. [callous]i'd get the popcorn and the beer & pull up a seat, because this is going to get ugly the world is becoming a very crowded place, and we arent doing much to slow it or to expand our horizons. might as well let those who wish to, free up more O2 for the rest of us.[/callous]____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #52 June 3, 2003 >well of course you can abstract any situtation to the ridiculous, but honestly yes. I suppose then we will continue to disagree. I would not want to be part of a DZ or a national organization that allows jumping under their program where such jumps will likely result in serious injury or death. If you want to buy a few pairs of scissors and run around with them, fine. If you want to get a buddy's plane, buy a rig on Ebay and jump, again, that's OK - it's your life. But USPA represents skydivers in the US, and I would not want a program that I've worked pretty hard on to pass on making this a safer sport if the opportunity was there - as it has been several times in the past (pull altitudes, AFF-JM ratings etc.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #53 June 3, 2003 Quote Would you be OK with a 19 year old woman showing up at a DZ, declining a FJC, and doing a 2-way with her 20 jump boyfriend for her first jump? Suppose you explain it's dangerous, and she's willing to take the chance - would you be OK with it then? Bill these kind of statments don't help your cause at all. First off its the DZO's responsibility to insure that all new jumpers are trained properly before they make the first jump. Second no one new or other wise that has made jumps and is off student status, is not familiar with wing loading at least to a degree and the pearls of jumping a smaller canopy. They do not do it out of ignorance they do it from choice, big difference. Also last year 54 percent of fatalities were D license holders and the average jump numbers were over 1000 that comes straight from page 35 of the April parachutist. So while landings were the leading cause it's not low time jumpers that lead the way. Oh the mean jump number was 521. So most of the proposed rules wouldn't have changed very much. Unless of course you all want to make rule changes on jumpers with over 1000 jumps. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #54 June 3, 2003 and as we've argued for several threads. education and changing "the culture of disinterest" so that people seek it, will make the sport safer for everyone involved. We can do that without further limiting the freedoms that are (were once at least) fundamental to our nation. will it be quick? no. will it be easy? probably not. wiil people still die? yes (they will anyway. death comes for everyone) will you be responsible for your own life choices? yes. so you'll be OK when the majority of jump injuires & fatalities happen to jumpers with 500+ jumps? even if the number of injuries stays relatively the same?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #55 June 3, 2003 Quote> I would not want to be part of a DZ or a national organization that allows jumping under their program where such jumps will likely result in serious injury or death. and that is your choice. Fortunately you don't have to. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #56 June 3, 2003 Quote and as we've argued for several threads. Yup. Pointlessly in many cases. Have you sent the S&T committee an email expressing your views on this subject yet? If not, why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #57 June 3, 2003 actually its in its third revision..i just keep getting distracted by work.. but i dont really see that there is any need to hurry in the first place..i prefer to collect much more data before drawing conclusions..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #58 June 7, 2003 "opting Out" of madatory controls through approved canopy training is an interesting idea. It would imply that there would first have to be some enforceable wing loading regulations. Opting out through qualified instruction would satisfy safety concerns as well as our American character streak that insists we be as big or as great as we dare. Sure, you can be as great as you dare, as long as your friends don't have to give you first aid and pray that the medevac chopper arrives in time. But if you take some ono-on-one instruction and pass some kind of test (that you can also fail if you just don't get it), then hell, why not get a 15 ft Project X Deathray canopy with just 45 jumps. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #59 June 10, 2003 Quote than let people chose to hurt themselves if they wish...if you offer the education, the information and the opportunity to learn and they still dont listen and think they can do it on their own?? The problem is that, even after explanation, the dangers don't really sink in until it's too late. We're talking about peoples lives here. A mother keeps her kids from crossing the street until they have the capacity to judge for themselves when to cross, and the physical ability to do it (ie: not trip over their feet cause thye can't walk wek enough yet). W/O her they kid would tumble into the street cause he just doesn't know any better.. he hasn't seen what can come of it.. and warm him as you may, he just won't 'get it' until he grows up a little. new jumpers are like that.... we who've been around a while 'get it' cause we've seen it... so why shouldn't we keep the young'uns safe until they have the skills (both mental and physical) to go out on their own? we're not talking about taking away their freedoms.. we're talking about limiting them temporarily to help them ease through what can be a very painful and deadly learning curve. Yes we learn best from our mistakes... but we can't learn from them if we're dead. Why is trying to help people survive the lessons such a bad thing? Sure they may make the same mistage under a lighter loading, but they're more likely to survive it and have learned from it, w/o losing the rest of their life. Do you WANT to keep the sport as deadly as it is? Quote Oh well... hopefully the divot they make will inspire others not to remain so ignorant. yeah.. that's worked well so far... so well in fact that the #s just keep going up. Quoteself determination is more important than safety. if you truly understand the risks... most low-timers don't, and won't until they're around a while... I'm for giving them the best shot at living until they get it. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #60 June 10, 2003 kids are not legally responsible for themselves..its not like were talking about 16 year olds.. the majority of skydivers are 18+ at which point they are legally allowed to make decisions about their own future..(with the exception of alcohol laws, but i think the US (18 v 21) stance on that is also arsine however thats another topic) help people survive by teaching them about the dangers involved. if they are so sheltered that death isnt a reality for them already then they probably shouldnt be skydiving in the first place, however once they are 18 (21) the risks they decide to take (should be) entirely up to them i want to keep the sport as free as it is, there are other means of making it less deadly. the number of skydives and skydivers is going up, of course the numbers of injuries/fatalities should remain proportional, however one years worth of numbers is simply not enough to be drawing conclusions from. How do you prove it simply wasnt the high end of the curve? there are so many more factors to be weighed in looking at any fatality that pointing at simple wingloading is short sighted, particularly when you are doing so as an argument for greater restrictions. are you ok with the same number of fatalities when they have a higher average jump number? i agree giving everyone the best chance to jump again tomarrow is important, but IMO we should be striving to do that thru training, not regulation.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #61 June 10, 2003 >the majority of skydivers are 18+ at which point they are legally >allowed to make decisions about their own future . . . Legally, perhaps, but we don't let them. A jumper with 2 jumps may not jump without an AAD, may not jump without a JM, may not jump his own gear etc. So we don't follow the "adults can do anything" rule, because some people don't yet know enough to a) save their own lives reliably and b) make a good call on what's dangerous and what's not. Right now, jumping larger canopies, they are students until they have between 7-25 jumps; they can't jump their own gear. Beyond that they have the skill to decide on their own what they want to jump, as long as the gear is similar (i.e. still a large canopy.) It is my position that, if someone at that level wants to jump a Stiletto 97, they are unable to land that safely without further training, and thus the same rules we use with other students should apply to them as well (although they may have more than 25 jumps.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #62 June 10, 2003 we do however follow the "licensed adults can do anything rule" as it applies to driving etc and that is what i wish to see continue, with the ability & opportunities to seek further training to help you survive your personal choices. are you petitioning the state DMV for a HP/ # hours driving regulation? why not? it could save thousands of lives..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #63 June 10, 2003 >we do however follow the "licensed adults can do anything rule" as it applies to driving etc . . . No we don't. 18 wheelers are hard to drive, and you need to take a test before you can drive it even if you are an adult. >are you petitioning the state DMV for a HP/ # hours driving >regulation? why not? it could save thousands of lives.. For difficult to drive vehicles (trucks, motorcycles) yes - but we have that already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #64 June 10, 2003 once you get your standard drivers license you can drive anything from a geo metro to a testerossa once you get your motorcycle permit you can drive a tiny 110 or the 600 you cant lift if it falls over once you get your CDL you can drive a dump truck or the 3 trailers mammoths not positive on the last, i'm not a trucker to make the same analogy to skydiving you would have to divide the classes by rounds squares ellipticals crossbraced etc.. NOT by wingloading...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldnewbie 0 #65 June 10, 2003 Many states regulate the drives on truck for tank trucks (gas), multiple trailers, buses etc.. Most of these can be driven by taking a class and passing a test. Each one of those takes a different endorsement. At one time (it might still be) in order to drive a truck crosscountry, you needed to be 21 years of age, but only 18 to drive in the state. The determining factor was the insurance that in many states you MUST have. A truck driver with under 5 years of experience couldn't even get a job with a good company becuase of the increased insurance cost. Motorcycles which also require an endorsement. Many states require insurance for these. Have you checked out the price on insurance on a CROTCH ROCKET. Well, a 16 year old i know just bought one and the insurance was $6,000 for 6 months. That was the cheapest he could get. This means yes, he can legally drive a motorcycle, but no, he cannot drive it because the insurance companies know the risk of him crashing with his limited knowledge. (And the cost of insuring a new corvette for an 18 year old is $8,000 a year, so he really cannot drive this either until he gets more experience and proves he can drive normally and safely) I'm not sure this relates to skydiving, but is just food for thought, not an opinion on anything!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #66 June 11, 2003 Quoteonce you get your CDL you can drive a dump truck or the 3 trailers mammoths not positive on the last, i'm not a trucker Won't jump on you, because you stated you were guessing, but... There are multiple classes of CDL here in FL, from one that allows you to drive small commercail vehicles like Ryder/U-Haul type vans to the big rigs. If you want to be licensed to carry passengers, you need to take a special written/driving test. If the vehicles you will drive have air brakes, you have to take an additional written/practical test. Etc., Etc., Etc. In many ways it is like the graduated system used by the FAA for pilots. Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money. Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
