Student jump documentation question for Instructors

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Here is a question for you Instructors, and it is about documenting student jumps. I'm soliciting your opinions in response to some ideas suggested from an instructor I know, (not for USPA S&T issues). It is oriented toward the US and USPA.

1. Logbooks seemed to work just fine, with the S&TA verifying knowledge and skill requirements when filling out the "A" license application (now the "A" license Proficiency Card), but this required that the instructors wrote enough in the logbooks, (which often doesn't happen).

2. USPA added the "A" license Proficiency Card, which presumably was a "checklist" to make sure that a student had enough (documented) knowledge and skills (in their logbooks or otherwise) before getting their license.

2A. The least paperwork for the Instructor-
If the logbook was filled out in enough detail, the S&TA could simply verify the knowledge and skills in the logbook and fill out the Proficiency Card *when the student applied for a license*.

2B. More paperwork for the Instructor-
The student is concerned enough about their progress to bring their "A" license Proficiency Card to their debriefing and have the instructor sign off items on a *jump-by-jump basis*.


OK, after all that, here is the question.

Q1. As instructors what do you think of adding another?

3. Signoffs in the DZ training program manual, the one that has the DZ's particular list of jumps listed and the things that the student is supposed to be accomplishing on them. (These signoffs would be in
addition to the proficiency card if filled out each jump.)

Q2. What do you think is an adequate level of safety?
(To be brief you can answer 1, 2A, 2B, 3)

Q3. Which would be your prefered level?

Q4. Is this too much paperwork, and are parts of it superfluous?


Related questions if this additional document is in place:

Q5. What happens if the student remembers their logbook, but not the training manual?

Q6. If Manifest is the first point of contact for figuring out where the student is in their progression and what instructor to assign to the student, what document does manifest personnel base their decison on?

Q7. What do think of replacing the logbook with the DZ training manual so that there would be only two documents to sign off? (The training manual and the proficiency card.)

[markbaur 0]

There are two "A" license proficiency cards, a 2-page version, and a 4-page version. Which one are you referring to?

Mark

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2 page. This is where a DZ would have their own progression that differs from the USPA ISP.

[rigging65 0]

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Q1. As instructors what do you think of adding another?

Why? If the DZ is following the USPA 'A' lic. card, they shouldn't need this. If they're not, then they might need this. If you want to cut down on paperwork, use the system USPA has set up. It's complete and in a compact form.

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Q2. What do you think is an adequate level of safety?
(To be brief you can answer 1, 2A, 2B, 3)

We insist on 2B. You need to have the info in the log book, but also each item on the card checked off so we know were the student is going on their next jump. We force some responsibility on our students: They will remember their logbook and Card. Why let them off the hook? Would you let them off the hook when it comes to remembering their alti? How about their emergency procedures...?

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Q3. Which would be your prefered level?

As it is, 2B.

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Q4. Is this too much paperwork, and are parts of it superfluous?

I don't think so. We're a busy DZ with a good amount of students and Instructors. We may be jumping with someone who has done several jumps with another AFF/I, but he's busy and we can't discuss the last jumps with him, so we need the info in the logbook, as well as the progression on the Card. Card gives the concrete data, Logbook gives the "feel" of the dive...both are important.

Since we don't use a "Student Manual" as a check off sheet (although we do have a very complete Manual for reference), I can't answer much on the last few questions.

I will say this though: Manifest is a busy place, they have lots of jobs to do. We expect our AFF/Is to pick up the student, figure out what they're going to be doing (see below), brief them up, jump them, debrief them, and then let them know what they'll be doing on their next jump. Of course, that info is also in the logbook and, by default, on the card.

I don't like the idea of replacing a log book with a Student Manual, because they're eventually going to need a real logbook, and that won't have all their info in it if they've been using a Student Manual up to that time. So now they've just got to hold on to another document, when it could all be in their "real" log book.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Shark 0]

Hey Gary,

I'm not sure what's adequate, but I can tell you what I'm used to and comfortable with. First off, entries are always made in the student log books, and if it is an AFF jump, we complete additional log book type entries for the student's files. It's nice if they have a history and you know what you're in for or what to emphasize prior to the jump. Once out of AFF we give them the 2 Page Proficiency Card. I make it their responsibility for getting it complete, but in reality, I assist them with it and verify requirements they may have already met. It seems to work, and I'm not sure what you can minimize or add to it. I'm curious to read what others do.

Mark

[sducoach 0]

Hey Gary,

You are a brave man.

Q1, No need if you are keeping a DZ record. Many DZ's don't do so because of the big old "L" problem.

Q2, 2B if used much like a 141 flight school record.

Q3, 2B Instructors have a responsibility to the student beyond the jump. To often I see this part fall by the way side when things get "busy".

Q4, Not to much paperwork if the card is being followed and completed as each item is achieved.
I do not see the need for a "manual" if the card is used.

Q5, Use the prof. card as a manual. Student's responsibility to maintain, review, and know what is next along with the Instructor. If they forget the card I'm not going to tell them not to jump but, they need to update the card prior to the next jump and noted while doing the logbook entry. I don't believe a prof. card is as critical as an altimeter.

Q6, Manifest us usually not the first contact in ref. to training level. The instructor is, and a review of the log book and prof. card tells the tale.

Q7, No. One more piece to keep track of. Our DZ uses a "student" log book that is four pages long for those who jump and decide not to return. It is a good souvenir for them to show their grandkids however, those who decide to continue automatically are told to purchase a "real" log book and the previous jumps are transferred into the real book.

I can't believe you are wanting to document more Gary!!!

#1 Be Safe, YES. #2 Have Fun, You bet!

Blues Gary,

J.E.

James 4:8

[mustard 0]

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Hey Gary,

You are a brave man.

I've known this about Gary for awhile, since we work together at the WFFC, for many many years now. He does most of the work until the Convention starts, then I do most of the work in my tent (for the youngsters).

I think the 2-page or 4-page proficiency card is the best thing USPA has come up with in many years -- you, as the student, have the major responsibility, we show you what we think you should be learning, and DZOs or JMs can't easily schmooze you out of what you deserve in training. Students *know* when someone says to them that they don't really need to know something on the card, they are being cheated.

But the paperwork is definitely increased. The proficiency card, and being around when the student is going through the process, tells all of the instructors a lot about who gets it and who needs more work.

Just my 2 cents.

***
DJan

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Everyone,

A quick clarification, and reply to J.E.

I am not suggesting more student jump documentation myself. I am asking for opinions due to the suggestions of more documentation by someone else.

I am not stating how much documentation I prefer because I don't want to influence your opinions.

[sducoach 0]

You are one of the loves of my life! (Sorry Skratch!)
Please don't tell anyone but................... I've known "this Gary" for a few years too. He's the only guy to kick me in the face during my AFF prep dives!!! The fact that he's also one of "you", well, he's still a good guy in my book.

Plus, Gary and I feel the same concerning "paperwork".


Blues,

J.E.

PS.

Gary, don't let it go to your head!!!!!!! See you in June at the Hillbilly Boogie??

J.E.

James 4:8

[skymedic 0]

yeah gary's ok...until ya make a dock on him while still on the hill...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Bunyip 0]

I worked at a DZ that had a student/instructor sign off sheet. This covered first jump training and subsequent jumps. In these days of negligence claims it can prove that the training was conducted and give you a record of the student who 'left his logbook at home'

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

As the manager/chief instructor of a fairly busy ISP-based dropzone school, I can tell you how in depth we do it here at Raeford.

1. Every student gets issued a two-jump-per-page precision logbook in which every jump is critiqued in great detail and then a blurb is written whether or not the student is cleared to the next level or not.

2. In depth student training record forms are kept in a file here on the dropzone. Every jump up to A-license is recorded, as is a checklist on the back page which both the student AND the instructor initial off on after the FJC. At the bottom of that page is a blurb stating basically, "yes, I have actually recieved all the training outlined above and yes, I understand the liabilities. This, along with the individual's waiver form are kept in an alphabetical filing cabinet in the school.

3. Finally, every single student gets an A-license proficiency card which is filled out during debrief after every jump. The "long" A-card is the simplest checklist available to ensure a student is on track and has not skipped any steps. Once again: we follow ISP to the letter here at Raeford. It's the best way to ensure there is no disparity in training from one dropzone to another.

As our clientel is highly military-based, we get a lot of students and unlicensed novices who have come from other dropzones. I am amazed by the incredible lack of documentation some of those people come here with, thinking they are "good to go." I have also encountered on more that one occasion a situation that just makes me crazy. What in the world is up with a school that refuses to give up your individual training record should you have to leave, or just don't think you are at the dropzone for you? I have seriously had a student tell me that his old DZ manager refused to give him his logbook and records; he had to stay and finish his training there. A call to the dropzone from my regional director rectified the situation.

If you are an instructor or school manager, please do yourself and your students a favor: don't skimp on the paperwork. The less you write, the more you are hosing that next instructor who gets the student.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
Raeford Parachute Center School