RickFeiner 0 #1 May 31, 2003 My local DZ only offers IAD and I was just wondering what you guys (and gals) think the pros and cons of it are. How many of you learned this way as opposed to static line or AFF? And lastly why isn't it used much any more? So far I'm only on jump #2, both went great, I loved every minute of them! I plan on doing about 6 jumps this weekend. First post BTW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #2 May 31, 2003 Actually, I have seen IAD on a resurgence lately. There are a few reasons some operations are getting away from SL and going to IAD; we are among them. First off, it means that I can use my very nice AFF student Javelins in an "other than AFF" setting without having to change anything on the rig. As it is, I only very-rarely get anyone stopping by to do SL jumps; we teach ISP-based AFF at Raeford. Still, if someone wants me to teach them SL, I will certainly accomodate them; I have been SL rated for over 15 years. I generally maintain one rig set up for SL, so it's not a problem really. In the transition to IAD vs. SL I will free that rig up for AFF and rental usage without having to waste 20 minutes swapping the deployment system. In my opinion as someone with every other instructional rating, IAD is just as good as SL so long as you have very confident and competent instructors out there on the step. Hell, I was already standing out on the step with the student when I was dispatching SL students, so that's nothing new to me. The club I used to teach at, The Green Beret Sport Parachute Activity, recently completely changed over to IAD and cross-trained all it's instructors at one time. They report to me that it's going very well. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #3 May 31, 2003 As a pilot I prefered flying IAD students over S/L. There were fewer "balks" on IAD. I think it is a mental thing when the JM is out on the step with the student. They are more confident and put at ease in a stressful situation. I learned to skydive on the IAD method. Done correctly it will teach you as well as any other program.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #4 June 1, 2003 Who told you FFE only offers IAD? We offer IAD, AFP, and AFF. Go back to the web page, www.freefallexpress.com and double check then, e-mail me and let me know who said IAD only. IAD was developed in Canada years ago and moved into the "States" in the past 8 years or so. The benefit is in equipment and cross training. Skymonkey gave you a pretty good read but, if you have any questions call the DZ and ask for me. I teach them all. I was a dope rope student myself and when IAD came into Missouri ( what was it Chris around 95??) cross trained into that system. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. It may be that some new "instructor" at the DZ said IAD only because Bryan and I are the only AFFI's at the DZ. Blues, J.E. Van NattaJames 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RickFeiner 0 #5 June 1, 2003 Actually It was a friend that told me that, not an instructor. Either way I like the IAD and am not thinking of switching, I was just curious, thanks for the info guys. I will probably be up next weekend to do a few jumps, its a long drive from home (Jackson Missouri) but I will be meeting a friend up in springfield so I'll be up there anyway. I guess I'll see you when I get up there. Looking forward to a good weekend, just hope its not raining Rick- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murrays 0 #6 June 1, 2003 QuoteIAD was developed in Canada years ago and moved into the "States" in the past 8 years or so. The benefit is in equipment and cross training. Specifically, IAD was the brainchild of Tom McCarthy, the owner/operator of Skydive Gananoque near Kingston, Ontario. Tom started doing IAD in 1979 or 1980, shortly after he became the first Canadian dz to start putting students out with piggyback containers rather than front-mounts. Tom no longer does IAD as he has converted completely to tandem followed by one-on-one AFF/PFF style progression. Tom is an innovative DZO that has always been in the forefront of change. Skydive Gananoque is a great place to skydive...if any of you are ever in the neighbourhood, drop in and make some skydives.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #7 June 1, 2003 Blues and Thanks, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikeat10500 12 #8 June 2, 2003 QuoteBlues and Thanks, J.E. We use a "modified" dynamic door exit for IAD. We(JMs) just sit close to the door and lean out a little...makes for fast turn-a-rounds. ...mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #9 June 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteIAD was developed in Canada years ago and moved into the "States" in the past 8 years or so. The benefit is in equipment and cross training. Specifically, IAD was the brainchild of Tom McCarthy, the owner/operator of Skydive Gananoque near Kingston, Ontario. Tom started doing IAD in 1979 or 1980, shortly after he became the first Canadian dz to start putting students out with piggyback containers rather than front-mounts. Tom no longer does IAD as he has converted completely to tandem followed by one-on-one AFF/PFF style progression. Tom is an innovative DZO that has always been in the forefront of change. Skydive Gananoque is a great place to skydive...if any of you are ever in the neighbourhood, drop in and make some skydives. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> murrays, You are a nice guy and I hate to disagree with you, but Tom MacCarthy did not invent IAD. Keep in mind that I still respect Tom and all his innovations, but IAD was really invented in Alabama or Georgia circa 1975. There was an article on the subject in an old issue of Parachutist Magazine. However, IAD quickly died out in the land of its birth, so Tom MacCarthy imported IAD to Gananoque where he refined it. A few more refinements came from Claresholm, Alberta and the last major improvement (hanging exits with the instructor out there with the student) came from a CAPS DZ that will remain nameless. In the 1990s, IAD was re-introduced the land of its birth. I used to teach a modified "dynamic exit" to IAD students, but too many of them were unstable, so now I much prefer climbing out on the strut with them while they do hanging exits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murrays 0 #10 June 2, 2003 Rob, Well, there's a Canadian skydiving myth blown to bits! You're not disagreeing with me...you're correcting me :-) I have always been of the understanding that this was something Tom had come up with....and I know I am not alone in that belief. Interesting....thanks for the history lesson. Speaking of the hanging exit....I agree that it is much better than the dynamic exit...better stability and less chance of a tail strike. Speaking of a CAPS DZ...I showed up at Westlock in about 1986 wanting to skydive. The FJC was just getting out and the woman at manifest told me I wouldn't be able to jump and then asked me if I was an instructor. I told her I was and Jim Mercier went over how they did the hanging exit with me and I out out 25 or 30 students before I left. I was greatly impressed with how much better their exits were...compared to the dynamic exit being used everywhere else I'd been jumping. I later mentioned this to a very well known CSPA Course Conductor and was told that what Mercier was doing was all wrong...blah, blah, blah. I laugh my ass off now that the hanging exit has become the norm...Thanks to TK Hayes work (correct me if I'm wrong on that one)-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #11 June 2, 2003 QuoteI was a dope rope student myself and when IAD came into Missouri ( what was it Chris around 95??) cross trained into that system. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. Blues, J.E. Van Natta It came to MO whenever Greater Kansas City Skydiving Club opened I believe. That would have been about '93 (actually before my time). I heard that MRVS had used it a bit but don't believe it was used much. And I don't know what MRVS uses now. You'd have to ask them.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikeat10500 12 #12 June 2, 2003 QuoteRob, Speaking of the hanging exit....I agree that it is much better than the dynamic exit...better stability and less chance of a tail strike. I won't say the dynamic exit is better than the hanging exit...but...lets look at it. Hanging exit...both student and instructor must climb out of A/C. Someone could fall off! I have heard, it's not always just the student that falls off. Student, once out there, is hanging in a great body position for opening( clean deployment ). Tossing the PC a little early is less likely to rip the tail off the AC. Tossing the PC a little early could result in the student catching it and trapping it all the way to impact....so good JM's don't do that anyway. Working outside the A/C with a PC, bridle and student in hand increases the chance of bag drop(student or JM). Slow students may get long spots( not a big deal). Dynamic exit...neither student nor JM has to clime out. JM has complete control of student( he does not have to hang on to A/C). Both student and JM have containers inside the A/C out of the propblast in the case of a bag drop. Student must perform an actual door exit...push out, arch, spread out, look up, follow A/C with eyes, etc. That is a lot for the first jump...but it's all optional! This exit is very educational for the student...they learn to fly their body wile I open their main. Spots are easy to maintain...I say go...and they go! I have seen a lot of shitty exits but no mals....using IAD, the main opens very fast with hanging or dynamic exits. The problem with IAD's and Dynamic exits( sound familiar?). If you use time sense to determine when to release the PC...you will get bitten. There must be enough separation between the student and A/C to 100% guarantee they can not become a cling-on. Students can dive towards the tail of the A/C...now you may want to short line them. Although IAD's may be alive for years to come on small DZ's...but the dynamic exit is all but gone. (There are few people left who know how do do it safely anymore) ...mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BenGriffiths 0 #13 June 2, 2003 I never knew much about IAD until now. What I want to know is how does the dummy Pull stage work??? Does the Student do a dummy pull then the instructor oull the PC---------- Ben G Still Sinking :-( Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikeat10500 12 #14 June 2, 2003 QuoteI never knew much about IAD until now. What I want to know is how does the dummy Pull stage work??? Does the Student do a dummy pull then the instructor oull the PC Paper Toss...replaces simulated ripcord pull. News paper is folded to fit PC pouch. JM removes PC in A/C then student inserts news paper in pouch. The IAD proceeds normally with the student pulling the news paper out to prove ability before moving on to clear and pulls. The main opens so fast that the practice pull ( paper toss) is very rushed. Never liked it much. We do IAD's to prepare students for PFF mostly ( like AFF). Clear/pulls and short delays performed by students can make JM's very old...very fast( unless you don't watch!). ....mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
SkymonkeyONE 4 #2 May 31, 2003 Actually, I have seen IAD on a resurgence lately. There are a few reasons some operations are getting away from SL and going to IAD; we are among them. First off, it means that I can use my very nice AFF student Javelins in an "other than AFF" setting without having to change anything on the rig. As it is, I only very-rarely get anyone stopping by to do SL jumps; we teach ISP-based AFF at Raeford. Still, if someone wants me to teach them SL, I will certainly accomodate them; I have been SL rated for over 15 years. I generally maintain one rig set up for SL, so it's not a problem really. In the transition to IAD vs. SL I will free that rig up for AFF and rental usage without having to waste 20 minutes swapping the deployment system. In my opinion as someone with every other instructional rating, IAD is just as good as SL so long as you have very confident and competent instructors out there on the step. Hell, I was already standing out on the step with the student when I was dispatching SL students, so that's nothing new to me. The club I used to teach at, The Green Beret Sport Parachute Activity, recently completely changed over to IAD and cross-trained all it's instructors at one time. They report to me that it's going very well. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #3 May 31, 2003 As a pilot I prefered flying IAD students over S/L. There were fewer "balks" on IAD. I think it is a mental thing when the JM is out on the step with the student. They are more confident and put at ease in a stressful situation. I learned to skydive on the IAD method. Done correctly it will teach you as well as any other program.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #4 June 1, 2003 Who told you FFE only offers IAD? We offer IAD, AFP, and AFF. Go back to the web page, www.freefallexpress.com and double check then, e-mail me and let me know who said IAD only. IAD was developed in Canada years ago and moved into the "States" in the past 8 years or so. The benefit is in equipment and cross training. Skymonkey gave you a pretty good read but, if you have any questions call the DZ and ask for me. I teach them all. I was a dope rope student myself and when IAD came into Missouri ( what was it Chris around 95??) cross trained into that system. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. It may be that some new "instructor" at the DZ said IAD only because Bryan and I are the only AFFI's at the DZ. Blues, J.E. Van NattaJames 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RickFeiner 0 #5 June 1, 2003 Actually It was a friend that told me that, not an instructor. Either way I like the IAD and am not thinking of switching, I was just curious, thanks for the info guys. I will probably be up next weekend to do a few jumps, its a long drive from home (Jackson Missouri) but I will be meeting a friend up in springfield so I'll be up there anyway. I guess I'll see you when I get up there. Looking forward to a good weekend, just hope its not raining Rick- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #6 June 1, 2003 QuoteIAD was developed in Canada years ago and moved into the "States" in the past 8 years or so. The benefit is in equipment and cross training. Specifically, IAD was the brainchild of Tom McCarthy, the owner/operator of Skydive Gananoque near Kingston, Ontario. Tom started doing IAD in 1979 or 1980, shortly after he became the first Canadian dz to start putting students out with piggyback containers rather than front-mounts. Tom no longer does IAD as he has converted completely to tandem followed by one-on-one AFF/PFF style progression. Tom is an innovative DZO that has always been in the forefront of change. Skydive Gananoque is a great place to skydive...if any of you are ever in the neighbourhood, drop in and make some skydives.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #7 June 1, 2003 Blues and Thanks, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #8 June 2, 2003 QuoteBlues and Thanks, J.E. We use a "modified" dynamic door exit for IAD. We(JMs) just sit close to the door and lean out a little...makes for fast turn-a-rounds. ...mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 June 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteIAD was developed in Canada years ago and moved into the "States" in the past 8 years or so. The benefit is in equipment and cross training. Specifically, IAD was the brainchild of Tom McCarthy, the owner/operator of Skydive Gananoque near Kingston, Ontario. Tom started doing IAD in 1979 or 1980, shortly after he became the first Canadian dz to start putting students out with piggyback containers rather than front-mounts. Tom no longer does IAD as he has converted completely to tandem followed by one-on-one AFF/PFF style progression. Tom is an innovative DZO that has always been in the forefront of change. Skydive Gananoque is a great place to skydive...if any of you are ever in the neighbourhood, drop in and make some skydives. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> murrays, You are a nice guy and I hate to disagree with you, but Tom MacCarthy did not invent IAD. Keep in mind that I still respect Tom and all his innovations, but IAD was really invented in Alabama or Georgia circa 1975. There was an article on the subject in an old issue of Parachutist Magazine. However, IAD quickly died out in the land of its birth, so Tom MacCarthy imported IAD to Gananoque where he refined it. A few more refinements came from Claresholm, Alberta and the last major improvement (hanging exits with the instructor out there with the student) came from a CAPS DZ that will remain nameless. In the 1990s, IAD was re-introduced the land of its birth. I used to teach a modified "dynamic exit" to IAD students, but too many of them were unstable, so now I much prefer climbing out on the strut with them while they do hanging exits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #10 June 2, 2003 Rob, Well, there's a Canadian skydiving myth blown to bits! You're not disagreeing with me...you're correcting me :-) I have always been of the understanding that this was something Tom had come up with....and I know I am not alone in that belief. Interesting....thanks for the history lesson. Speaking of the hanging exit....I agree that it is much better than the dynamic exit...better stability and less chance of a tail strike. Speaking of a CAPS DZ...I showed up at Westlock in about 1986 wanting to skydive. The FJC was just getting out and the woman at manifest told me I wouldn't be able to jump and then asked me if I was an instructor. I told her I was and Jim Mercier went over how they did the hanging exit with me and I out out 25 or 30 students before I left. I was greatly impressed with how much better their exits were...compared to the dynamic exit being used everywhere else I'd been jumping. I later mentioned this to a very well known CSPA Course Conductor and was told that what Mercier was doing was all wrong...blah, blah, blah. I laugh my ass off now that the hanging exit has become the norm...Thanks to TK Hayes work (correct me if I'm wrong on that one)-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #11 June 2, 2003 QuoteI was a dope rope student myself and when IAD came into Missouri ( what was it Chris around 95??) cross trained into that system. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. Blues, J.E. Van Natta It came to MO whenever Greater Kansas City Skydiving Club opened I believe. That would have been about '93 (actually before my time). I heard that MRVS had used it a bit but don't believe it was used much. And I don't know what MRVS uses now. You'd have to ask them.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #12 June 2, 2003 QuoteRob, Speaking of the hanging exit....I agree that it is much better than the dynamic exit...better stability and less chance of a tail strike. I won't say the dynamic exit is better than the hanging exit...but...lets look at it. Hanging exit...both student and instructor must climb out of A/C. Someone could fall off! I have heard, it's not always just the student that falls off. Student, once out there, is hanging in a great body position for opening( clean deployment ). Tossing the PC a little early is less likely to rip the tail off the AC. Tossing the PC a little early could result in the student catching it and trapping it all the way to impact....so good JM's don't do that anyway. Working outside the A/C with a PC, bridle and student in hand increases the chance of bag drop(student or JM). Slow students may get long spots( not a big deal). Dynamic exit...neither student nor JM has to clime out. JM has complete control of student( he does not have to hang on to A/C). Both student and JM have containers inside the A/C out of the propblast in the case of a bag drop. Student must perform an actual door exit...push out, arch, spread out, look up, follow A/C with eyes, etc. That is a lot for the first jump...but it's all optional! This exit is very educational for the student...they learn to fly their body wile I open their main. Spots are easy to maintain...I say go...and they go! I have seen a lot of shitty exits but no mals....using IAD, the main opens very fast with hanging or dynamic exits. The problem with IAD's and Dynamic exits( sound familiar?). If you use time sense to determine when to release the PC...you will get bitten. There must be enough separation between the student and A/C to 100% guarantee they can not become a cling-on. Students can dive towards the tail of the A/C...now you may want to short line them. Although IAD's may be alive for years to come on small DZ's...but the dynamic exit is all but gone. (There are few people left who know how do do it safely anymore) ...mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenGriffiths 0 #13 June 2, 2003 I never knew much about IAD until now. What I want to know is how does the dummy Pull stage work??? Does the Student do a dummy pull then the instructor oull the PC---------- Ben G Still Sinking :-( Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #14 June 2, 2003 QuoteI never knew much about IAD until now. What I want to know is how does the dummy Pull stage work??? Does the Student do a dummy pull then the instructor oull the PC Paper Toss...replaces simulated ripcord pull. News paper is folded to fit PC pouch. JM removes PC in A/C then student inserts news paper in pouch. The IAD proceeds normally with the student pulling the news paper out to prove ability before moving on to clear and pulls. The main opens so fast that the practice pull ( paper toss) is very rushed. Never liked it much. We do IAD's to prepare students for PFF mostly ( like AFF). Clear/pulls and short delays performed by students can make JM's very old...very fast( unless you don't watch!). ....mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
