Anyone who likes both freeflying and RW

[rendezvous 0]

Ok so here's my issue. I seem to like both belly flying and Free flying. I'm still only at 130 jumps and at this stage I don't want to give up one over the other. I want to develop a decent level of skills in both before I choose one over the other. At the moment I'm working on RW skills but trying to get myself to sit too. I would love to hear your thoughts on trying to do both specially from those who do so. Can you be a good belly flier and a free flier before you take on one over the other.

[Watcher 0]

Short answer yes you can be both and proud of it.

Long answer, the more proficient you are in FS/RW you will be able to transition and apply skills much faster in freeflying. Many of the top freeflyers will tell you that a firm base in bady awareness and flying skills in RW will make your transition to Freeflying much easier, safer, and more fun.

Now I like freeflying, but not that often, spending 45 seconds on my head trying to get close enough to someone to touch their hand twice is just not as enjoyable as turning blocks going vertical over someone and doing other complex moves.

--

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[AggieDave 6]

I think you can be a good flier in both styles, but you're going to have to dedicate yourself to one or the other for a number of jumps to get proficiant in one, then the other, then back, the the other, etc.

That's what I'm doing right now and its worked well. I'm also getting very good coaching for both. For instance, I've been getting Skydive U. coaching for my RW work and that's helped speed me along QUICK.

Good luck!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[alain 0]

I would put it some other way: do you have time and money involved with being good at both ?
I don't (unfortunately)

[rigging65 0]

I don't think anyone will argue that being proficient at ALL disciplines will help you no matter what you're doing. The better you are at flying your body, the better you skydive...

It will take you longer to get good at both if you work at RW and FF at the same time...but what's the hurry? As long as you're enjoying yourself, just take your time and learn as you go!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[grega 0]

huh, i have the same problem. i do just do a little of both. but i still mostly jump FF because i like it more.

What really bothers me is that you are like an outsider in each group. Freeflyers don't take me completely in their "family" because i'm a belly flyer and at FS the same.
This sucks!
Why can't we just fly our bodies in the air. and be one big family !!!
That's why i like swooping so much. no matter what you fly, you always "have to" swoop at the end

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Katzeye 0]

Just my $0.02

Freeflying has a way higher learning curve than RW. It will take much longer for you to become FF proficient at an equal proficiency level in RW. This may lend to a higher frustration level with the sport.

As a newbie, basic body skills (read: belly flying) are going to save your life. Master those first.

In FF things go to shit twice (if not more) as fast than in RW. Are you proficient enough with your basic body skills to save your life in those situations?



If you can't tell, I firmly believe that you should spend your newbie jumps learning the level horizon. For some it takes 200 jumps for others only 50. Once you've got belly-to-earth down, mixing up the horizon will be more intuitive and your RW skills will directly relate to fun and safety in FF.

LA*

Is a chicken omelette redundant?

[freakydiver 0]

Forget about all of the bullshit perception that comes with being either one or the other. ITS ALL FRIGGIN FREE FLYING. I've been doing all different types of "flying" in my eight years and will continue to do all different types. THEY ARE ALL FUN FOR DIFFERENT REASONS and not to mention can be combined. Don't be like that lame free flyer who will NEVER go on a belly to earth jump or vice versa. So much to learn and its fun to learn to!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[JFC3 0]

What I'm doing is speding a season on each and the winter season to do both. Last year I concentrated on RW. This year it's FF. I feel sorry for those who pigeon hole themselves. Plus this way keeps everything fresh. And there's a pleathora of excellent coaches in both fields.

"Five days? But I'm angry now!"

[superstu 0]

i'm in the exact same boat. i'm starting to think that i'll work on one discipline for lets say a month or 2, then switch it up. but during that month, if i do a solo jump i'll do the opposite discipline just to stay a little current within that relm. right now i've been concentrating on rw but do ff jumps when i go solo. i also set short term goals for myself to see if i can accomplish them or not for each month.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[brits17 0]

true, but its all what you dedicate yourself to... we can just as easily turn 10-15 points freeflying, as we have our own complexity as well. ie: eagles, jokers, etc. see you around bartlett

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have done an awful lot of different things in this sport, sort of out of neccessity. I would get very good at one thing then get totally bored, so I had to find something else to do to keep from quitting the sport altogether. That being said, I have instructed all my life, been a 12.5 4-way competitor (in 1990, back when that meant something), made about 200 skysurf jumps on a board of my design (because they didn't make them in 1990), have over 200 wingsuit flights, made a bunch of sit-suit jumps when that was cool, and have absolutely no problem flying on any axis (even in a bootie suit. Ask Kris). While I may not be the "best" at any of the things I do, I can certainly hold my own in any discipline. Still, as has been previously posted in this thread, you ought to get "good" at one thing before you step into another arena. I have never lost my ability to do good 4 and 8-way RW, nor the ability to swoop down to a 60-way. The fact that I teach and haul meat more nowadays does not hurt that. Likewise, jumping a 370 square foot Sigma tandem main does not hamper my rear-riser swoops on my two Velocities. Get that base skill-set and you will always have it. Quit a discipline before you have the requisite skills and you are going to suffer for the rest of your jumping carreer and never have the "name" it takes to get on decent loads. Having a name, even though you might be well out of what some people call "current" and you will generally be able to get onto and excell much more. That was sort of rambling, but its the best I could do in a hurry.


Chuck

[rendezvous 0]

thanks guys for your input. It definitely helps to put things into perspective hearing opinions from those who've been there and done that. I'm going to continue to balance the two. May be change a bit of focus here and there but I think I want to be able to fly and not just belly fly or free fly. If it takes longer to master them, then so be it. Just another challenge. Your insights definitely make it easier to understand what I'm trying to do.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm not that much more experienced than you (so break out your salt shaker). Anyway, a while back I decided that I wanted to work at certain freefly goals (short term goal of flying safely with others and a long term goal of being able to emulate the FlyBoyz). But that doesn't mean that I wanted to ignore the other skills (RW and now tracking dives) as I still would like to be proficient enough in these disciplines to be invited on the odd fun jump load. But I'd be surprised if I'm ever interested in joining a 4-way RW team as to me freeflying is so much more fun. So with that in mind, 75% or more of my dives are freefly jumps with the rest going towards tracking dives, hop n' pops and the odd belly jump. Heck I get plenty of experience falling on my belly, as I do it every jump (usually only starting at about 4000 feet).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skymedic 0]

I love both and have a great time at both. I think it is a challenge to do a freefly jump then an RW jump the next time...no arch...arch..no arch arch....bad thing was I made a jump last year at WFFC where I was on my belly. went over Fallinwomans burble and dumped on my back...the freeflyer I am, put me right into a sit without thinking...needless to say by the time I popped to my belly I had dropped well below the girlfriend...

oh well it was fun....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[kallend 2,027]

At the 2002 USPA National Championships, Rook Nelson won a gold medal both in freeflying and in RW.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JJohnson 0]

Rook also was basically born and raised at a DZ. He probably logged freefall time when he dropped out of his mother. Not exactly a great comparison to the average skydiver. There is not a lot that Rook cannot do well....and yes he had great teachers, great talent and worked hard for it.

Can you be good in mutliple disciplines?? yeah. All it takes is effort, time, money and dedication.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[marcin 0]

My jumps are probably 40% fs and 60% ff. I think proficient belly flying is essential. I jump on a 4way team and its easier to find 3 another formation skydivers than 3 another freeflyers to jump together on an average DZ.

One-on-one ff is fun, but limited after a while. On a 4 way team, you can enjoy the fun of team work with people you like and doing something technically challenging. In ff this would require knowing some really strong freeflyers and significant experience.

After certain amount of ff jumps I strongly desire an occasional belly (fun) jump. The more types of skydiving you do, the longer it stays interesting.

[lurch 0]

Ok pop quiz: who agrees with this and why?
The background: I'm at 104 jumps. I'm both very light and built like a spider (5'10" 135 lbs no gear)so I float very badly...pro-track claims I go sub-100 without effort. After working on my flat flying for awhile after aff till flat stability and control became second nature I started working on a sit and a stand. Naturally corking is my big issue. I can get a stand fairly easily and even control it somewhat-but I keep falling over. I'm improving every jump and expect to have a workable sit/stand down well enough to jump with others and -NOT- cork within another 10-15 jumps. The idea behind this personal progression has been to get used to any of my possible fall rates so I can stay with the others no matter what they're doing. I've had belly dives where I got stripped off the clump instantly floated high above them and was only able to get level with them by standflying some distance off. Weird standing next to bellyflyers...and staying level that way. Some of these people bellyfly at 135-45! Until I start using weights I don't seriously expect to keep up with them...even a macaroni arch isn't enough. I can't accelerate fast enough out the door to even keep up. We all go out, I go steep steep dive to try to stay with em but watch the formation get further and further away....
so. I want speed and attitude control in any position, and am gaining it too. Pro-track tells me last standfly I topped out at 165 and I only fell over 3 times...Afraid of violently corking into someone, I've been doing this alone mostly and making fast progress at remaining upright for longer and longer and going faster and faster as a result...although lately I've added other freeflyers to the mix at a very safe several-hundred-foot distance. I just try to keep up....and am starting to succeed.
So why was I approached by some older bellyflyer recently and informed loudly angrily and aggressively that I will learn NOTHING this way until I start jumping with others, preferably flying flat?
I'm making FAST progress here at least by my standards. I consider this period my second aff, but vertical. How can I get it across to this guy that if I'd been freeflying with others at this skill level I'd have probably killed someone with some of my uglier corks/wipeouts? And that at this point I still simply can't stay with the belly guys when flat? Laws of physics buddy! You outweigh me by 96 lbs and you have a smaller surface area! I must have "wasted" 15 jumps where every time the result was the same...exit, and immediately turn into a hang glider and watch the rest of my formation plummet away below leaving me hanging up there arched to the max, and arms and legs pulled in small as I can get, helpless to do anything about it. Given enough time I can build up to their speed but it routinely takes me 7,000 feet to catch up with em. For awhile I used to do belly by going out linked and using the other guy as a paperweight to drag me up to speed, then levelling off and proceeding with the dive, but thats just a crutch, a workaround, and I find most people don't want to have to hack the dive to allow for a linked exit to compensate for this. So instead of trying to thrust myself where I'm not wanted and will only fuck up the dive, I freefly. So what was with the anger and aggression? Obviously I AM learning, and fast. Protrack and logbook tell the tale...my freefall times are getting shorter and shorter with the same exit and pull altitudes, and I can now keep other freeflyers in sight and mostly level with em, whereas when I started I watched the other freeflyers drop away, then got the hell out of their airspace cause I couldn't stay upright long enough to build up any real speed and stay down there level with em. I don't want to tell an older more experienced jumper he has his head up his ass, and I DO understand his point....with nobody to compare to you can't learn good relative fall rate control. But thats not my problem. For me -relative- fall rate control is easy...up a little, down a little, no problem. Its the gross fall rate control I suck at. And its THAT thatll make me collide with others and keeps me distant till I can keep up. Comments?

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I feel your fall rate pain (something that I'm sure the average weighted skydivers take for granted and don't really understand). Of course I'm coming at it from the other side of the spectrum being a fast faller as opposed to being a slow faller.

I occasionally do a freefly jump with a small person such as yourself and often find myself falling on my back (to keep them in sight) while they're in a stand. But recently he's gotten a new jump suit and claims he can fall much faster (so there is hope). I also did a belly jump last Sunday with two light weights who were both lesser experienced sub-100 jump skydivers (because one of the guys, my friend from the same AFF course last year didn't have a freefly friendly rig) and I went low on the formation (no surprise there). And neither guy seemed to make an attempt to come down to me. So I spend the jump falling on my back (likely a faster fall rate than on my belly) only because I wanted to keep them in sight.

Skydiving would be so much easier if we all fell at the same rate.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

I am new (24 jumps) to jumping, and I am so glad to have read this as I am considering pursuing both RW and FF, if I can afford it. Thanks for the tips, everyone! Eventually, if I prefer one over the other, then I will spend more time and money on that specific discipline. My true love will probably be Birdwoman (waaaay in the future).

[dreamsville 0]

I believe and have been told that R/W should be first, then sit/stand, then head-down. Having done all 3, I can tell you that, while it's difficult to master any one of these, difficulty in acquiring basic stable flying skills go in the order mentioned above.

It takes a few weeks or months concentrating a lot on one skill. You can mix it up but, if you need to work on a chosen skill, do many jumps in your target skill for a while. Head-down may require weeks or months to get some stability, with more time required for basic movements. I am in this stage now with head-down so I can you that relaxation and practice are ESSENTIAL. It feels great when you are on a jump and you know you found it.

R/W is fun and is an essential base skill. Sit is important even if your main objective is head-down, since you need a recovery position that maintains a fast fall rate.

Lastly, it's easier if you can do at least a few hundred jumps a year if you want a broad skill set. Jump enough with free flyers and R/W types and they will probably accept you. However, in the short term you need to focus. That takes time. Get out your wallet. But in the end you'll be glad you worked on more than one thing and the people with whom you end up flying will be part of your reward.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Well said ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rigging65 0]

There is a pretty simple phrase that I think works in your situation and you might want to consider learning: "Dress for Success".

It doesn't matter what type of flying you want to do, you need to be adequately prepared for it. You're light and tall, get used to wearing weight if you want to belly fly, that's all there is to it. If you don't want to wear weight, then you may not want to belly fly...like you said, it's physics!

Freeflying is the same way. Once you get some skills and can stay stable and transition, you'll need a suit that's going to help you get range in your freefall speeds. Since it takes longer to develop Freefly skills, for many people, you won't get to the "need a proper suit to help me stay relative and develop range" state for a while longer than you would on your belly, but you won't just be able to use any ol' thing off the rack...just like you're going to need some special gear for RW, your FF suit will also need to be a bit more "custom".

All I'm saying, is don't let someone tell you you need to fall faster and take it as an insult. Go put on weight and match the DZ's fall rate!... or don't, and have fun doing something else...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[kallend 2,027]

He said that to you because he's correct.

I wouldn't want a 104 jump person freeflying near my RW group either. If it were Missy Nelson, that would be another matter entirely.

If you want to jump with the RW guys, get yourself a tight nylon suit and a weight belt.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.