Canopy selection...Hey Icarus pilots!!!!

[jose 0]

Well, I am not sure where to post this, but with all the pitbulls in talkback, I am sure not going to post there.

I am considering a new canopy. I have demoed the Sabre2 150 at Eloy and I absolutely loved it. It was everything that my current Sabre1 150 isnt.

As I was researching used gear sites, I came across a guy selling Safire2's and it got my curiosity going. So I went to the site and learned as much as I can about them and it is directly compared to the Sabre2 in flight characteristics.

Being that I only have 93 jumps I am questioning if this canopy design is too aggressive for me. It is a truly elliptical canopy that is "lightly" shaped. I have not yet found someone that can explain what "lightly" exactly means.

I have also been told, and as the site says, consider going to a 139 as compared to a 150, due to the superior glide, flight, and flare characteristics. Apparently the Safire2 has 2x the glide than the Sabre2 and the Sabre2 being more ground hungry in turns. If the safire2 can outflare a Sabre2, well wow, I'm impressed.

This all comes back to the same consideration I have. The fact that the canopy is an elliptical canopy as compared to the semi-elliptical Sabre2.

Info about myself....my profile is correct..93 jumps, 165 lbs, jump at sea-level and stand up my landings 99% of time the other 1% being slight butt skids that I dig out of. I really enjoy the forward velocity that turf surfs provide, but I only accomplish slight ones as I NEVER hookturn for landings. The only speed I accrue for a landing is a couple of zig-zags on final, or straight in when there is no wind. I consider myself a conservative canopy pilot, but am looking for something that I can grow into that will not put me at undue risk from the start.

As recent threads have turned to shit around here, if you have serious considerations about my inquiry, PLEASE PLEASE be civil about your reply and please read it before you click that button.

edited to update my fat ass weight.

[mikkey 0]

I recently bought a Safire2 and I love it. The openings are great, soft and reliable. It is rock solid but fast and turns fast but without "twitching". It is perfect for somebody around 100 jumps if you do not load it too agressively. Landing is a joy with a hugh flare "envelope" so you have a lot of margin in regard to how to flare it. The Sabre 2 is good too, but Safire2 is better I think. You should demo a couple also to find the right size for you. I am conservatively loaded at 1.15 but there is more then enough "fun" for me at this loading and at the same time it is very forgiving. If your exit weight is 160 lbs
the 139 is about a 1.1 loading for you and probably OK for you (but talk to your instructors about that). If 160 is your body weight and your exit weight is more like 180+ then I would recommend to go up one canopy size.
Again, see if you can get a demo jump in both the Sabre and the Safire. I love the Safire but the Sabre is good too - so best to try out both and choose what suits you.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[dragon2 2]

Hi,

The subject of elliptical vs tapered etc has come up a lot before.

Anyway if you liked the Sabre2 you´re probably going to like the Safire as well. They are somewhat comparable. However I think the Sabre2 is more agressive (or however you want to call it) than the Sabre1. So if the Safire´s over your head, so´s the Sabre2. What WL do you jump?

As for it being over your head, in Empuria they teach students on Safire´s (albeit at a low WL of course).

In Holland both the Sabre2 and the Safire are only allowed if you have > 100 jumps, while the original Sabre is allowed from jump # 0.

I myself got a Safire (1) loaded at ~1,24:1, which makes it a fun canopy to fly. Read: pretty damn fast compared to my Spectre´s at 1:1 and 1,1:1. Also, pretty good flare and amazing glide ratio, compared to the 7 cells I was used to. (I have almost 300 jumps.)

At my DZ there are 2 advanced pilots with Safire 2´s loaded higher than mine, I´m the only one with low jump numbers and a (reasonably) low WL.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jose 0]

I weigh 165 prior to gear. My wingload, if my scale is correct, will be 1.39 with the 139 and 1.30 with the 149. There will be a difference in the canopy weight, but probably not enough to make much of a difference.

I already mailed the rep regarding demoing both the 139 and the 149, so well see.

[Hooknswoop 19]

First, why do you want to downsize?

Hook

[diablopilot 2]

Please take all that helpful data on a manufacture's web site with a grain of salt. IMO if you are comfortable on the Sabre2 150 you will find the Safire 149 a comparable canopy. You will also find the Fusion from Precision to be similar. There will be subtle differences that I believe at your experience level, will not matter that much. If I had my choice of the three, I'd pick the Fusion for the openings, and flair.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,991]

>I have also been told, and as the site says, consider going to a 139
> as compared to a 150, due to the superior glide, flight, and flare
> characteristics.

You tried a 150 and liked it, right? That's way more important than what a website says.

I have flown both Sabre2 150's and Safire 149's (note - not the safire2 149.) My regular canopy is a Safire 119 with the hooknswoop mod (which makes it similar to a Safire2.) I think they're pretty equivalent - both are lightly tapered 9 cell ellipticals. The Safire might be _slightly_ more forgiving than the Sabre, but if it is, it's not by much. The Sabre seemed a little more ground hungry. Glide seemed about the same. Before the mod (i.e. on the Safire 1) the Sabre2 had the better flare, but the flare is going to improve dramatically on the Safire2.

>Apparently the Safire2 has 2x the glide than the Sabre2 and the
> Sabre2 being more ground hungry in turns. If the safire2 can
> outflare a Sabre2, well wow, I'm impressed.

That's not true. A Safire doesn't even have 2x the glide of my Triathalon, and that's awful at at gliding. The Safire and Sabre are very close in terms of performance. As far as I can tell people like one or the other primarily because of details, not because they are significantly different.

I think you'd be happy with either the Sabre2 150 or the Safire2 149. That's a good loading to learn on - I put around 1000 jumps on a Sabre1 150, and it was a good size to have fun on but still let you learn (i.e. you can learn to flare turn without risking a horrible injury.) The Sabre2 would have been a lot more fun than the Sabre1 even at the same size, but it wasn't available when I bought my first Sabre.

If you do think you want a 139, make sure you put enough jumps on one that size to make sure you're confident you can land it under all conditions (and that includes downwind, in turbulence and in a crowd.) I would worry that you'd buy the smaller canopy and be able to land it OK under good conditions, but be leery of it so that you don't try flare turns, low flat turns etc and therefore never learn how to do them. But that's up to you.

[johnny1488 1]

I have about 450 jumps and jump a safire2 169 loaded at 1.36. I think this is too high for you at 93 jumps. The safire is an excelent canopy. The safire doesnt have 2x the glide of the sabre2 but I believe it does have better glide. I base this on my jumps on my buddy's sabre2 170 and my buddy flying mine saying mine glided much more(when you tell it to.) As far as being fully elliptical Icarus builds all their canopies elliptical. Each cell is a different size. This doesnt make it dangerous or aggressive in the safire's case. The safire2 has a very short recovery arc (levels out fast after a turn) and has a very powerful flare with a long control range. Remember if you like the safire and want to get one new you can get ANY size you want for whatever wingloading you want. You will not be disappointed with any Icarus canopy IMHO.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[JayhawkJumper 0]

I fly a Safire 189 with the new safire2 line trim. It's not a bad canopy, but in my opinion it doesn't have near the flare of a sabre2.

[mikkey 0]

Don't agree. Maybe the "1" with a new trim is not quite identical with the new "2". I have a new 189 and the flare is hugh if you know what you are doing. I have a big "envelope" of flare I can play with and really "fly" the flare. The last bit of flare is very deep for me - have you tried to really pull the toggles deep?

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[azdirttorpedo 0]

Before you make the purchase, consider the Big Air Sportz LOTUS. It incorporates Brian Germain's Airlock system and fits right inline with the Sabre2 Safire2 canopies. Slightly tapered on the trailing edge. I jump the Samurai from the same manufacturer. I love the airlock system. It feels like a solid rigid wing over your head. PD is contracted to build the canopy so there is no reason to be concerned with quality. Read about them at[/url] www.bigairsportz.com[url]