contradicting rules in SIM

[JayhawkJumper 0]

There is an interesting contradiction in the SIM regarding pull altitudes. The SIM says that decision altitude should be 1800 feet for all licensed jumpers. If you are a C or D license holder though, it says you can pull at 2000. I personally don't see any way you could throw a pilot chute at 2000 and decide in 200 feet if you are going to cutaway or land your main. You could interpret this to say that C and D license holder should be open at 2000, but I don't think thats what it means. I am not saying that you can't cutaway below 1800. I know people that have cutaway at 1000 and were open to unstow toggles and land, but the SIM does seem to contradict itself here.

[quade 4]

If you did a hop&pop from 2000, do you think you'd be open above 1800?

I'm pretty sure I would and I jump a Spectre.

I don't think there's a contradiction at all.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JayhawkJumper 0]

If you threw your pilot chute at 2,000 (at terminal), would you be open by 1800? I used to jump a spectre and I definately wouldn't be. And even if you got a 200 foot opening on your canopy (ouch), you wouldn't have any control checks done.

[sundevil777 102]

I think that if SIM explained the two guidelines together as you have then there is no contradiction.

If you must think of this scenario (hop & pop) yourself, then I think there clearly is a contradiction.

Also, 3.5 seconds is all you need to fall 200 ft assuming no drag from air or snivelling parachute.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[quade 4]

Ok, if you don't like my first (quick, cheap & easy) explaination, then let's break it down from the SIM.

Section 2 of the SIM is titled "Basic Safety Requirements and Waivers"

The Summary of Section 2 reads:

Quote

Summary
The Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs) have been established as the cornerstone of the self-policing principle upon which skydiving is based. They represent the industry standard generally agreed upon as necessary for an adequate level of safety. Research can be conducted to develop and document new methods and procedures within the BSRs and, when necessary, under waivers to the BSRs, to establish a justifiable basis to modify these standards. This section includes two fundamental, interrelated USPA publications: the Basic Safety Requirements and waivers to the Basic Safety Requirements.

Section 2-1 G.

Quote

G. Minimum opening altitudes [E]
Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:


1. Tandem jumps-4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders-3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders-2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders-2,000 feet AGL

Note: These are -minimum- altitudes -- obviously it -may- be prudent to open higher under certain circumstances, but the SIM BSRs do allow for these altitudes under certain other circumstances such as the Hop & Pop example I gave in my previous post. This is only waiverable by the Executive Commitee of the USPA.

Section 5 of the SIM is titled "General Recommendations".

The Summary of Section 5 reads:

Quote

Summary:
This section of the SIM provides USPA recommendations for skydiving generally applicable to all jumpers, regardless of discipline or experience. USPA updates them as equipment and techniques change.

Experience shows that proficiency in any skill depends on how often the skill is exercised, especially with skills that require presence of mind, coordination, sharpness of reflexes, and control of emotions.

These recommendations do not carry the same self regulatory weight of as the BSRs, but would be good practices by all skydivers.

Paragraph 5-1 E 3 c reads:

Quote

c. You should decide upon and take the appropriate actions by a predetermined altitude:



(1) Students and A-license holders: 2,500 feet.

(2) B-D license holders: 1,800 feet.

Lastly and just for fun, let's look up the word contradiction at dictionary.com.

Quote

contradiction

n 1: opposition between two conflicting forces or ideas 2: (in logic) a statement that is necessarily false; "the statement `he is brave and he is not brave' is a contradiction" [syn: contradiction in terms] 3: the speech act of contradicting someone; "he spoke as if he thought his claims were immune to contradiction"

So, a contradiction of SIM 2-1 G would need to say something to the effect of "A D licensed skydiver must initiate emergency procedures at or above 2,000 AGL." Since 5-1 E 3 c recommends that procedures be initiated at 1,800 AGL there is clearly no contradiction either in word or in spirit.

To make it even more clear, you MUST initiate deployment by 2,000 AGL but you should begin emergency procedures by 1,800 AGL. There is no contradiction.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,991]

>If you threw your pilot chute at 2,000 (at terminal), would you be open by 1800?

Unfortunately, I have had a few openings like that.

>I used to jump a spectre and I definately wouldn't be. And even if you
> got a 200 foot opening on your canopy (ouch), you wouldn't have any
> control checks done.

On 3 of my 5 mals there was no need for a control check. On one I had cut it away a few seconds after pulling, primarily just because it "felt" wrong (instant spin, asymmetrical loading on one riser.) If you think you can do that in one second, then you can pull at 2000 and make the decision by 1800. It's not too realistic, though, which is why most people pull above 2000. I usually pull around 2500 unless I have a good reason not to (like traffic.)

The 2000 foot thing is like a speed limit on a road. You can't pull any lower than that without getting in trouble, but often it's a good idea to pull higher - just as you can legally do 55 on a road even when it's snowing. It doesn't mean it's a good idea unless conditions are perfect (i.e. light snow, good snowtires etc.) Or in the case of skydiving, a C+P under a fast opening canopy.

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Paragraph 5-1 E 3 c reads:

c. You should decide upon and take the appropriate actions by a predetermined altitude:

(1) Students and A-license holders: 2,500 feet.

(2) B-D license holders: 1,800 feet.

Just for kicks, I pulled out my old SIM from when I took my 'D' license test back in 1998.

Quote

Section 8-3.17 A 5

"The decision to cut away should be made by an altitude of 1,800 feet AGL; the cutaway should begin by 1,600 feet AGL."

Interesting that they have combined the two and lifted the 'decide and execute' altitude to the same measurement now.

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[JayhawkJumper 0]

The last sentence of your post makes sense. I don't have a SIM here with me, but if thats the way its worded, then yes there is no contradiction. If C and D license holders MUST deploy by 2000, but SHOULD initiate emergency procedures by 1800, but don't have to, then yes, there's no contradiction, just a couple good guidelines. I stand corrected.

[fundgh 0]

To further support this...
Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground ***
Would indicate that the pin has been pulled from your closing loop, would it not. You would have to pitch by, what 2100 or 2200 to get that pin out by 2000?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[billvon 2,991]

>Would indicate that the pin has been pulled from your closing loop,
> would it not.

Technically yes.

> You would have to pitch by, what 2100 or 2200 to get that pin out by
> 2000?

Or just pull at 2000 if you have a pullout.

[fundgh 0]

Once again general guidelines are just that guidelines. You have to develope your own set of rules based on your equipment, your experience, and your capabilities!

...FUN FOR ALL!

[quade 4]

Quote

Once again general guidelines are just that guidelines.

Well, that's sort of where we have to make a little distiction.

I'm not really sure that most people understand this, but for skydiving operations in the United States, USPA SIM Section 2, also known as the Basic Safety Requirements, almost carries the weight of an actual regulation (law) with the FAA.

AC 105-2C Sport Parachute Jumping, an FAA Advisory Circular, specifically recognizes the USPA as setting the safety and training standards. In fact, if an accident were to happen and the FAA investigated it, anything in the BSR not being followed at the time would probably be considered "careless and reckless" by the FAA.

It is possible that (in the United States) you could operate outside the recommendations of the rest of the SIM and not run afoul of legal issues, but even if you're not a USPA drop zone, it would be very wise to operate within all of the applicable FAA FARs, since those actually are laws as well as the SIM Section 2 BSRs since the FAA accepts those as standard practices.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[fundgh 0]

I totally agree. These basic safety rules are minimums. Everyones' personal rules should exceed these minimums.

...FUN FOR ALL!