Tandem and AFF Migrating

[nightjumps 1]

I'm wondering if anyone else sees the trend of AFF and Tandem merging into a single instructional methodology OR the Tandem Progression method out-distancing AFF?

With the Tandem Progression Method in the new ISP, it would appear that Tandem Instructors can take a student all the way through the "A" License with almost all the same rights and priviledges as an AFF Instructor except; 1)Harness hold exit, and 2) pulling for the student at pull time.

The right to use hand signals during freefall with a Tandem Progression student appears contradictory. On one hand, the ISP recommends TI's teach it as part of the FJC, but then says we're not to use it in freefall (wonder if that will get violated since its kinda gray).

Not looking to "bow up" the AFF/I's in the group. Just looking for your thoughts on the trend-line.

...Bigun

[billvon 2,995]

I think the differences between tandem and AFF are similar to the differences between SL and AFF. If anything, a SL instructor will be closer to an AFF instructor; he's experienced in getting a student all the way through an instructional program, getting to him in freefall, and evaluating his problems in freefall. There are a few things you simply cannot do in the tandem program that you can do in both SL and AFF (like learning stability.)

All tandem progressions I know of graduate a student to AFF (or, rarely, a modified SL) program eventually, where they remain until they graduate. I can't see that changing.

[nightjumps 1]

Thanks for your input, Bill. We kinda use a little bit of all the disciplines depending on the student. We start them out on Tandems, then do a couple of static lines, then push them to AFF. Little better retention rate.

...Bigun

[D22369 0]

The right to use hand signals during freefall

W T F ???

excuse me? maybe I am speaking out my ass here, but since when did hand signalls become a right? Are you saying they are only for AFF I's?? What about the static line or IAD students that are in freefall? Am I violating some obscure tenant of the BSR's by doing my job to the best of my ability??
I have been using them for students in freefall for 4 years. its the only method of communicating that works..... I use the same ones that AFF uses ....If we are not allowed to use them, how are we supposed to communicate with the student? is there something in the FAR's that prohibits me from using hand signalls?? If there is, I sure havent seen it.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Kris 0]

Yup, same here. I'm an IAD instructor and I use AFF hand signals with freefall students once they get to the latter part of their progression.

My job is not to hang out in freefall and just watch or take the ocassional dock. My job is to help and encourage as needed. If that requires me to throw a "legs", "arch", or "pull" signal at an IAD student, so be it.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[nightjumps 1]

March 2002
Instructional Rating Manual

IAD/SL; page 8 (Green Pages)
Tandem; page 11 (Yellow Pages)

"Note: A USPA IAD, Static-Line, or Tandem Instructor may not assist in any way with the deployment of a student in freefall, including using hand signals to instruct the student to deploy."

...Bigun

[markbaur 0]

Quote

March 2002
Instructional Rating Manual
...

The October 2002 IRM doesn't have these odious hand-signal restrictions.
If there are other SIM or IRM changes you'd like to see, let the USPA S&T committee know: safety@uspa.org. The deadline is 1 May for changes to be considered at the July meeting.
Mark

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

The October 2002 IRM doesn't have these odious hand-signal restrictions.

Thank you, Mark. I'll get a copy of that and review it.

...Bigun

[mikeat10500 12]

Quote

Thanks for your input, Bill. We kinda use a little bit of all the disciplines depending on the student. We start them out on Tandems, then do a couple of static lines, then push them to AFF. Little better retention rate.

...Bigun

I think this may be the best way to start out.
Having the opportunity to explore Tandem,IAD/SL and
AFF training, could have positive long term effects on the student. This method gives a student something that is very hard to get at first...experience!
....mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[riggerrob 643]

I suspect that USPA said the right thing for the wrong reason. Since USPA does not require S/L or IAD instructors to have the same freefall proximity skills, they do not expect S/L or IAD instructors to be close enough at pull time to give hand signals.

The real reason for this statement in the SIM was to discourage students from depending upon S/LI giving them signals at pull time.

Having students depending/expecting/relying on signals at any point in the skydive is a bad habit. Every student - in every program - should have the dive flow clear in their mind before they leave the plane. That dive flow should be clear enough that they can complete the dive flow without prompting. Signals are merely a back up if the student hesitates. etc.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Incorrect, Rob. All USPA IAD and SL instructors must now be "coach" certified. Those two check dives clearly check you out on both proximity and use of hand and arm signals.

Personally, I am all for tandem-hybrid instruction. Three training tandem catagories, then straight to a Cat C, dive 2 (AFF system) would work perfectly for the dropzone who chooses to follow ISP to the best of their ability while dealing with instructor shortages.

Chuck

Chuck

[D22369 0]

Quote

Incorrect, Rob. All USPA IAD and SL instructors must now be "coach" certified. Those two check dives clearly check you out on both proximity and use of hand and arm signals.
Chuck

Ok, I can understand this. I do know one static line instructor with around 500 jumps who is a good freeflyer, his belly flying skills however are stunted to around 50ish, he does great with throwing them out of the plane on their first jumps, but in freefall he is too clumsy to fly in thier face, much less to pay attention to thier body position and awareness level, he was grandfathered in as an instructor when the new rating system was implimented, he does a great job teaching them on the ground but he couldnt pass the coach course to save his life.....

I would continue to use the hand signalls even if they were prohibited in the FAR's, there is no other way of effectivly communicating with a student in freefall.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[nightjumps 1]

Yeah, Mike.

We found that 2-3 tandems gets them used to the door opening, freefall and some one-on-one canopy control with the TI...

Then a couple of IAD/SL's to, 1) get them used to wearing a rig on their own and focusing on canopy control and landing...

Then, we do an AFF Level 3 (Cat B?.. off the top of my head?). THis way, the only thing new to them is the dive flow and they can focus on that.

Kinda got this from Skydive SPaveland who I think got it from Roger Nelson. We been doing it from the first of the year and if we can get past the one jump wonders, seem to have a beetter retention rate. Season's a little early so we don't have good stats yet.

...Bigun

[riggerrob 643]

{

Quote

Incorrect, Rob. All USPA IAD and SL instructors must now be "coach" certified. Those two check dives clearly check you out on both proximity and use of hand and arm signals.}
Chuck

Okay, point taken. My earlier posting just shows how long it has been since I last attended a USPA course.

The proximity skills of some old school coaches were a long way form those of AFF instructors, but now the gap seems to be narrowing.
Good.