spencer 0 #1 March 17, 2003 I have'nt had my A licence long, I used one of the student rigs, a telesis 270. Anyway after 50 jumps I brought a senergy 169 with a 220 reserve and cypress. My first two landings went well Flared at the right time, but after that it all started to go wrong, and over the next seven landings both ankles and knees took pain, we had wanted to jump all week but my confidence was fast disapearing. I weigh 177pounds, I have'nt jumped since about 4 weeks. Have I taken on more than I can chew or do I need to give it more time, there was alot of turbulence on the landing area. Any advice , Thanks . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #2 March 17, 2003 Are you saying that you have 50 jumps total and downsized 100 sqft? Please read this.http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf BB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #3 March 17, 2003 QuoteHave I taken on more than I can chew Sure sounds like it, doesn't it? Quotethere was alot of turbulence on the landing area. It might make you feel better to think this, but unless the experienced jumpers were pounding in too I don't think it made much of a difference. QuoteAny advice Get a bigger canopy _and_ get some serious canopy training. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #4 March 17, 2003 dude where are your mentors? If I downsized like that my coaches at sdo would shit themselfs. good luck, blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spencer 0 #5 March 17, 2003 On reading up on down sizing, my exit weight is 205lbs, so from a 270 student rig, what would be a nice size first rig, I'm in no rush to fly a hankerchief. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #6 March 17, 2003 Advice? Buy a Triathlon... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 March 17, 2003 I would think that a Spectre 210 (or Triathlon) would be a good canopy for you right now. Not too small, not too big. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #8 March 17, 2003 QuoteI have'nt had my A licence long, I used one of the student rigs, a telesis 270. Anyway after 50 jumps I brought a senergy 169 with a 220 reserve and cypress. My first two landings went well Flared at the right time, but after that it all started to go wrong, and over the next seven landings both ankles and knees took pain, we had wanted to jump all week but my confidence was fast disapearing. I weigh 177pounds, I have'nt jumped since about 4 weeks. Have I taken on more than I can chew or do I need to give it more time, there was alot of turbulence on the landing area. Any advice , Thanks . That Synergy is a PA canopy which means it has the same measuring issues as the original safires. It's about 8% smaller than a PD, so in PD terms you are flying a 155ish canopy putting you at ~1.3 at 50 jumps. Bad juju...Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #9 March 17, 2003 Quotewhat would be a nice size first rig Well, since you biffed on a 169 (which you load at over 1.2...) definitely no smaller than a 190, and a 210 would be a much wiser choice. Either way, seek out canopy control training from someone who really knows what they are teaching, and learn to fly that canopy to it's limits before downsizing any further. I too wonder where your mentors are, and I also wonder who told you that you'd be fine under that 169. I certainly wouldn't suggest going from a 270 to even a 210 in one jump - it amazes me that other jumpers let you downsize 100 sq ft in one jump. imho, anybody who told you you'd be just fine under that 169 shouldn't be allowed to advise anyone about first canopy sizing or downsizing in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #10 March 17, 2003 QuoteI too wonder where your mentors are, and I also wonder who told you that you'd be fine under that 169. I certainly wouldn't suggest going from a 270 to even a 210 in one jump - it amazes me that other jumpers let you downsize 100 sq ft in one jump. imho, anybody who told you you'd be just fine under that 169 shouldn't be allowed to advise anyone about first canopy sizing or downsizing in general. I wholeheartedly agree. A friend of mine had a similar adventure. He didn't get hurt, but the gear fear was pretty high for the first 5-10 jumps on his new gear. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 March 17, 2003 Borrow an 210 or 230 for a dozen jumps to get your confidence back up. Better yet, make it two dozen or three dozen jumps on the 210. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #12 March 17, 2003 Quote I too wonder where your mentors are I am pleased that first off, you recognized the issue, and second that you had the fortitude to pose the question here. An accomplished skydiver has a couple of interesting stickers on his helmet that read "Stupidity should be painful" and " If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough" Your willingness to put your question out here shows that you are interested in safety and education, you just need some guidnce from a few esteemed, characters.Cheers dude...and my you have blues and soft landings... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #13 March 17, 2003 QuoteThat Synergy is a PA canopy which means it has the same measuring issues as the original safires. That might have been true in the past, but you might want to contact PA about that. I have found that a 120 actually was closer to a 126-130. The 169 Synergy is closer to a 180. As far as canopy stuff for the original poster. You do not need a bigger canopy, you just need to get some coaching from qualified people (does not neseccarily mean your DZO or Some guy with a coach rating) Someone that lands well consistently and has good safe techniques. I have been to some DZs that the owner is wiping 180 degree toggle turns at 150 feet. Have confidence in your landing ability, its all mental, once people get confidence in their landings they ussually go from landing good 1 out of 10 times, to landing good 9 out of 10 times (you'll always have those off days when you slip on landing or something). --Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #14 March 17, 2003 QuoteHave I taken on more than I can chew? Yes. Were your instructors, DZO and advisers aware of the choices you made when you bought this? Did they supervise your canopy choice and performance? If so, I would strongly suggest finding a new DZ. These ones don't take your life seriously. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #15 March 17, 2003 QuoteThat Synergy is a PA canopy which means it has the same measuring issues as the original safires. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That might have been true in the past, but you might want to contact PA about that. I have found that a 120 actually was closer to a 126-130. The 169 Synergy is closer to a 180. PA still measures their canopies differently than PD, so a PD 120 is larger than a PA 120. QuoteAs far as canopy stuff for the original poster. You do not need a bigger canopy, you just need to get some coaching from qualified people So how much do you think someone can downsize in one shot and be OK as long as they get qualified canopy coaching? The orginal poster made too big of a jump in canopy sizes and has recognized it. Canopy coaching would help, but a larger canopy would the smart choice. Canopy coaching doesn't do him any good if he hurts himself on his next landing. There is still a learning curve. QuoteHave confidence in your landing ability, its all mental, once people get confidence in their landings they ussually go from landing good 1 out of 10 times, to landing good 9 out of 10 times (you'll always have those off days when you slip on landing or something). I agree that confidence helps, but it only allows someone to use their abilities that are already there. All the confidence in the world won't help if the ability to safely land the canopy isn't there. Lots of confidence doesn't make it safe for someone to downsize from a Manta 288 to a Velocity 79. Be careful with advice. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #16 March 17, 2003 QuoteAre you saying that you have 50 jumps total and downsized 100 sqft? Don't sensationalize. Going from a 270 ft student canopy to a reasonably sized 169 at 177lbs after 50 jumps is not really "downsizing 100 sq ft" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #17 March 17, 2003 QuoteSo how much do you think someone can downsize in one shot and be OK as long as they get qualified canopy coaching 1.2:1 and below at 50 jumps, I would have recommended he put 1-2 jumps every 20 ft coming down to the 170 He can do that renting gear at a DZ one day, 2 jumps on a 250, 2 on a 230, two on a 210, 2 on a 190, then he is back to his canopy. But he's there now, he did 2 good landings. Evaluate whats going on and go from there. The Synergy has amazing bottom end flare some of the best for any canopy I have seen of that size. QuoteAll the confidence in the world won't help if the ability to safely land the canopy isn't there. Lots of confidence doesn't make it safe for someone to downsize from a Manta 288 to a Velocity 79. Totally, absolutely agree. Depending on how well everything is going a 288 to a 170 for 140 jumps, to a Elliptical 120 for 230 jump, to a Crossbraced 103 for 700 jumps, to a crossbraced 79-84. Very doable, recommended? Not for most, for most double all of those numbers and add in a few canopies between a 120 and the 170 maybe a 150 elliptical. --Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #18 March 17, 2003 Eh? 270 - 170 = 100. That's a lot of canopy gone in one go.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #19 March 17, 2003 Exit weight is 205 so wingloading numbers = 1.21. going from a .73 loading to that is one big jump.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 March 17, 2003 QuoteDon't sensationalize. Going from a 270 ft student canopy to a reasonably sized 169 at 177lbs after 50 jumps is not really "downsizing 100 sq ft" 270-169 = 101. By my math it is 100 (actually 101) sq. ft. I don't think it is sensationalizing at all. What would "really downsizing 100 sq. ft." be to you? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #21 March 17, 2003 >Going from a 270 ft student canopy to a reasonably sized 169 at > 177lbs after 50 jumps is not really "downsizing 100 sq ft" Yes it is, and 169 sq ft is not reasonably sized for his experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #22 March 17, 2003 Quote1.2:1 and below at 50 jumps, I would have recommended he put 1-2 jumps every 20 ft coming down to the 170 He can do that renting gear at a DZ one day, 2 jumps on a 250, 2 on a 230, two on a 210, 2 on a 190, then he is back to his canopy. 1-2 jumps on a canopy means nothing, as the original poster proved: QuoteMy first two landings went well Flared at the right time, but after that it all started to go wrong, and over the next seven landings both ankles and knees took pain QuoteThe Synergy has amazing bottom end flare some of the best for any canopy I have seen of that size. Irrevelent. QuoteBut he's there now, he did 2 good landings. Evaluate whats going on and go from there. Again, 2 good landings means nothing. I am evaluating what's going on and going from there. He has made too big of a jump. Landing should not be painful. He has too small a canopy and doesn't yet posses the skill to handle the difficulty in flying it and he knows it. QuoteBut he's there now, he did 2 good landings. Evaluate whats going on and go from there. I am by no means conservative when it comes to canopies, and I do have a lot of experience in teaching canopy control and advising people on canopy choices. QuoteAll the confidence in the world won't help if the ability to safely land the canopy isn't there. Lots of confidence doesn't make it safe for someone to downsize from a Manta 288 to a Velocity 79. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Totally, absolutely agree. Depending on how well everything is going a 288 to a 170 for 140 jumps, to a Elliptical 120 for 230 jump, to a Crossbraced 103 for 700 jumps, to a crossbraced 79-84. Very doable, recommended? Not for most, for most double all of those numbers and add in a few canopies between a 120 and the 170 maybe a 150 elliptical. People learn at different rates, have different physical abilities/attributes. Jump numbers on a canopy is only a small part of the equasion. Performance is at least as important. Experience and ability go hand in hand. A whole bunch of ability isn't as good without experience. a whole bunch of experience isn't much good without ability. I have seen people with 1000+ jumps that are poor flyers and people with 100 jumps that are outstanding flyers, but the 1000 jump person has experience that helps them that the person with 100 doesn't have. Quotea 288 to a 170 for 140 jumps Back to this. Is it possible? Yes. Is it a good idea? No. Now apply this to the original poster. They are making a BIG downsize and having problems, it is a no-brainer to me that he isn't in that 1% catagory that can manage to pull off such a tremendous downsize. Lastly, what does it hurt to slow down? Is it a big deal to be flying a canopy well within their limits? Must everyone fly a canopy on the edge of their abilities? First question I ask people when they ask me about downsizing to a different canopy is "Why?". I often get a blank stare as they try to come up with a reason. There is a belief that downsizing is part of the natural progression and if you are not downsizing often, you are stagent and being "left behind" by the "better" skydivers. His landings are painful, he is in over his head. you didn't really answer my question. you said with coaching, he will be fine. That is for a 100 sq. ft. downsize. What if he had downsized 120 sq. ft., 130 sq. ft. At what point would you have responded: "You have downsized too much and no amount of coaching will save you. Buy a larger canopy"? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #23 March 17, 2003 QuoteThat is for a 100 sq. ft. downsize. What if he had downsized 120 sq. ft., 130 sq. ft. At what point would you have responded: "You have downsized too much and no amount of coaching will save you. Buy a larger canopy"? The wingloading exceeds 1.2:1 at 50 jumps, then that would be too much. The range at which that 100 exist makes a large difference too. Starting at a 288, 100 ft is not very significant. Starting at 170, that same 100 ft is extremely signifanct. Sorry I did not better answer the question the first time, was that a bit better? (and that had no scorn or sarcasm, sincere reply, hard to do that elegantly through text) --Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #24 March 17, 2003 QuoteDon't sensationalize FYI this was a clear and honest question for clarification. If you re-read the question asked was: "did the person go down 100 sq ft" NOT to a 100 sq ft canopy. It doesn't do well to assume anything in this medium. Hook, Billv, Jimbo and Bytch...I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #25 March 17, 2003 >I would have recommended he put 1-2 jumps every 20 ft coming >down to the 170 Surviving 1 jump on every canopy from 280 to 170 does nothing more than prove you're lucky. >I am on the more progressive side of the argument I would call yours the old fashioned viewpoint - downsize until you get hurt, then stick with that size. A progressive view would have a student get training on each canopy they jump until they are experts on flying it; that cannot be done in 1 jump (or even 2.) >Depending on how well everything is going a 288 to a 170 for >140 jumps, to a Elliptical 120 for 230 jump, to a Crossbraced 103 for > 700 jumps, to a crossbraced 79-84. I'd say going with fixed numbers for downsizing is pretty old fashioned. You can downsize to a 2 to 1 loading within 150 jumps with good training, but that's dedicating 100 of those jumps to professional canopy training (with video and an instructor debrief, not just "open high and play with it.") With occasional training it might take 400 jumps. Without training it might take 1000 jumps, if ever. It depends on the training, the skill of the jumper, and his goals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
