Push 0 #1 March 3, 2003 This is not an incident (thankfully), but I think many students can find this beneficial. The DZ I jump at uses ripcords on the mains with an FXC 12000 on both the main and the reserve. I've done my 22nd jump yesterday, first of the day. It was a 15 second delay from 5500', I was working on a stable box position that I have been having some spinning trouble with. We were grounded for lack of pilots in the morning, so I got lots of productive coaching from a very good instructor. When we finally went up I was confident that I can do well. Guess what, I screwed up good. Exit ok, arch ok, on heading, try a box, get a slow turn going. Try to stop it as per coaching, doesn't work. Twiddle legs around, too much input, turn becomes a spin. Punch an arch, still spinning. Try to look at alti, can't see anything because of the spin. Stare at it for a second or two, decide it looks like about 4800' (waveoff planned for 4000', deploy by 3500'), try to punch an arch again, POP. FXC fires on the main. 2800', I was off by 2 grand! Lessons learned: (a) If ever in doubt of anything, altitude in particular, pull. (b) Altitude awareness comes first, dive maneuvers second. (c) Skydives are stressful, even if you are no longer scared in the plane. Try to concentrate on too much and you'll probably get hosed. Prioritize correctly. (d) Freefall is much faster than you think. After that I went right back up and did a fairly stable box for the first time (beer!). Checked alti every second or so this time. Pulled a little high for the dive, as planned. Most important lesson from second dive: get back on the horse that threw you and learn from your mistakes. Blue skies and safe dives everyone! -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #2 March 3, 2003 In the UK we still require a student to count on 15 second delays - these are the dives that prove stability and altimeter reading ability prior to being progressed onto 20 second delays where counting is not required. I take it your system is different?Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #3 March 3, 2003 "decide it looks like about 4800' (waveoff planned for 4000', deploy by 3500'), try to punch an arch again, POP. FXC fires on the main. 2800', I was off by 2 grand! " FXC was hooked up to the main? "If ever in doubt of anything, altitude in particular, pull." This may be okay for students under the supervision of jumpmasters, but its generally a bad idea to be pulling at random heights if there are jumpers above you.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #4 March 3, 2003 From the first post... QuoteThe DZ I jump at uses ripcords on the mains with an FXC 12000 on both the main and the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #5 March 3, 2003 Sooo, am I getting this right, 2 FXCs on each rig?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #6 March 3, 2003 Yup. They have a FXC on the main set for 2800 and one on the reserve set for (I Think) 1400. The reasoning is to help stop dual out situations. Danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #7 March 3, 2003 Not that it matters, but my reserve FXC for this jump was set at 1000'. I believe that is the DZ policy. QuoteThis may be okay for students under the supervision of jumpmasters, but its generally a bad idea to be pulling at random heights if there are jumpers above you. I meant that for students. Thanks for pointing it out. What would you, an exprienced jumper, do if you find in freefall that your alti is screwed up? Say the needle sticks around 9000'. If you are, lets say, in a bigway? Waveoff and track? QuoteIn the UK we still require a student to count on 15 second delays - these are the dives that prove stability and altimeter reading ability prior to being progressed onto 20 second delays where counting is not required. I take it your system is different? I have been told that I do not need to count on my 15 second delays, so I wasn't. I usually count out an arch count (arch thousand through 5000) to make sure I'm stable. I wasn't doing this on my last two jumps, I wanted to learn to judge my stability without counting. The 15 seconds are to prove that you can get a stable arch on exit, a stable transition to a box, and pull at the designated altitude. Then simple freefall maneuvers are attempted on a 20 second delay. We stay on 20 seconds until graduation, after which we can go as high as we want. There is a coaching program available after graduation to learn more difficult freefall maneuvers, like tracking. Yes, the students are not taught to track during basic solo progression as I understand. You don't get your A until you can track, obviously, so it all still works out. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #8 March 3, 2003 >Sooo, am I getting this right, 2 FXCs on each rig? An FXC on the main and a cypres on the reserve is a not-uncommon setup for students. Two FXC's work too, but the extra reliability of the cypres is nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #9 March 3, 2003 If I'm spinning hard enough, can the altimeter start reading erratically? -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #10 March 3, 2003 I think that if you're spinning that hard, the altimeter is one of your lesser worries. I do know that it starts skipping if it's fastened so loose that it's flapping against your hand (if you're using a wrist-mounted alti). The spinning shouldn't be hard to test safely on the ground- just be careful that you don't fall down when you get dizzy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #11 March 3, 2003 Quote What would you, an exprienced jumper, do if you find in freefall that your alti is screwed up? Say the needle sticks around 9000'. If you are, lets say, in a bigway? Waveoff and track? If I were on a bigway, I might be inclined to wave off and track when everyone else did. By bigway, I am referring to at least 8 people. I might also try to get a glimpse of someone elses alti. "If in doubt, whip it out!" If I were on a solo jump, I would wave off really big for about 5 seconds at a height that I knew was higher than normal pull altitude. I would also make sure that I was tracking away from jump run. I would dump high just to ensure safety. No need to go lower for extra free fall if you know that your alti is failing. Common sense applies here.......use it and stay alive.ListoLive today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #12 March 4, 2003 Quote I think that if you're spinning that hard, the altimeter is one of your lesser worries. I came close to having a spinning mal under canopy yesterday and I did not look at my altimeter at all. I just addressed the problem to the best of my ability and fortunately, I resolved the issue before I had to go to plan "B". In retrospective I believe/hope that I was prepared to execute plan "B" if the corrective measured I tried didn't work. But one thing I did notice was that there was no time to hesitate. I was losing altitude real fast under that out of control canopy. And I learned that every once in a while, shit does and will happen to me on my skydives. I just hope I have the cranial capacity to deal with it when it arrives. I was able to deal with it yesterday, but what about tomorrow? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #13 March 4, 2003 Well, one thing for sure that will stop a spin is a canopy in the wind. If that canopy goes to the crapper because of a terrible line twist, at least you weren't in free fall anymore. A speeding canopy is nowhere nearly as fast as a human in free fall. Listo Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #14 March 4, 2003 QuoteYup. They have a FXC on the main set for 2800 and one on the reserve set for (I Think) 1400. The reasoning is to help stop dual out situations. Given the error rate on FXCs often in excess of 500', I'd say that setting FXCs 1000' apart runs a high risk of both firing at the same time. Are they at least labeled as to which is on the main and which on the reserve? Peter (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #15 March 4, 2003 Yes, they are. And setting them any higher you are running the, arguably more significant, risk of having it pop open into the face of the instructor. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #16 March 4, 2003 QuoteYes, they are. And setting them any higher you are running the, arguably more significant, risk of having it pop open into the face of the instructor. I'm not believing there is an arguement... I mean discussion, FOR the use of 2 FXC AAD's I think titanium was being generous on the + - 500 feet. I've witnessed on many more occasions than once.... the firing of an fxc over 1500 feet off it's calibrated firing altitude. Arguabely more?... I'm an instructor, so Is Titanium, we both have plenty of experience jumping with students and FXC's. I"m sure there will be people to argue the usage of dual FXC's as this is the internet... I mean Discuss the usage.... This statement ==>Two FXC's work too, but the extra reliability of the cypres is nice. is very politacally correct. None the less, That was a great post about your 2000 feet off experience. I'm sure it was quite the Eye opener. ThanksMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #17 March 5, 2003 >If I'm spinning hard enough, can the altimeter start reading erratically? I think a spin fast enough to give your altimeter G-loading problems would kill you well before the loss of altitude awareness would. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #18 March 5, 2003 I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing for the use of two FXCs. I have only been in the sport for half a year and I've seen a two-out on one of those rigs. Maybe I'm unlucky, but it's not such an uncommon thing with these FXCs. In fact, I believe that I've read about several fatalities because of FXC false positives. In my case, it may have saved my butt, but I'm sure that many students lose alti awareness at some point. A student on the second load I was on did the same from what I heard, so it should not be uncommon. Also, as I understand, most DZs in the US use a single AAD on student rigs, and the death rate is not high at all for students. I guess that just means that even students can figure out it's time to pull when they're 2000' lower and the ground is yelling "DUMBASS!!!" at them -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #19 March 5, 2003 Quote I guess that just means that even students can figure out it's time to pull when they're 2000' lower and the ground is yelling "DUMBASS!!!" at them LOL You got it then :)My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #20 March 5, 2003 Quote...the ground is yelling "DUMBASS!!!" at them Hey, that's good! Can I borrow it? Peter (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #21 March 5, 2003 Absolutely -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
