amir1967 0 #1 February 16, 2003 If you have one switch it on if you don´t have one buy one. I saw today a cypres save due to hard pull and inability to pull the reserve (could not locate the handel ) . It was low. very low. very very low. So until I´ll see reserve maine simultaneous opening I will use my like it is my last chance option when every thing else goes wrong AmirAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #2 February 16, 2003 Just out of interest, what's the poll got to do with this?____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #3 February 17, 2003 How about...check your main Pilot Chute? Or locate your reserve handle? Instead of buying a black box that MIGHT save you if you are stupid?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #4 February 17, 2003 I think it's just a reflection of hitting "new poll" instead of "post new" and then filling in the spaces. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #5 February 17, 2003 You right that's nothing to do with a poll I tried to post with new and got a massage missing poll so I just made somthing up not knowing what was the end result will beAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #6 February 17, 2003 QuoteHow about...check your main Pilot Chute? Or locate your reserve handle? Instead of buying a black box that MIGHT save you if you are stupid? Can you do that when you're unconcious? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #7 February 17, 2003 This guy was not unconcious. I bet most "saves" were not people knocked out. It is a pretty lame argument for AAD's. Yes I have one in one of my rigs....yes I prefer to jump it. I have one not incase I am knocked out...I have it incase I do some remakably stupid thing and should have died (which includes putting myself into a situation where I COULD be knocked out)....I have one to give me that extra margin of safety. But this person didn't pack correctly, and could not pull his reserve...I am glad he is alive, but negligance is what caused this. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #8 February 18, 2003 thats a bit harsh Ron, OK if he did pack incorrectly, many many ppl have made errors in packing and a lot of those ppl are very highly respected skydivers mistakes happen, unfortunate but true. You just do the best you can and if ALL else fails hope the Cypress doesn't You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #9 February 18, 2003 sorry squeak, I have to agree with Ron on this one. I always pack my own rig just for the sake of safety. I always know what I am jumping every time. I have over 2,000 pack jobs and no malfunctions causing reserve rides. I also have just under 700 jumps. Careless packing is like driving drunk, it isn't an option. Be ever vigilant when you pack a canopy, you never know when a fun jump might turn into a ......"I need to deploy to keep from hitting that goofball below me who tracked up jump run and opened high". That isn't the time for a malfunction, actually it might be the difference of not just saving one life, but two or more. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #10 February 19, 2003 My reply was to your last post. Can you do those things while unconcious (a good pilot chute will not get you concious, and you can't locate your reserve handle when you're unconcious)? I, too, think that a cypres is for when Murphy is visiting and when everything goes wrong. i.e you're unconcious, centrifugal force disables you from getting to your handles, etc. I don't see why that's a lame excuse for a cyprus. someone knocking you unconcious is not necessarily your fault (bad separation from the guy after you, you don't see him coming from behind you, and boom). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #11 February 19, 2003 And my reply was to your post.... This guy was NOT knocked out. And most Cypres "saves" are people who make a mistake, or just flat screw up. I can see screwing up and giving yourself a hard pull. I have not done it to myself in 2600 jumps, but I have seen it. What I cannot understand is "He could not locate his reserve handle". This person is alive because a bunch of electrons saved his ass....Inspite of this guys best efforts to kill himself. Factors in this "accident" 1. Either this person or his packer packed his pilot chute badly. 2. This person could not locate a handle that he needed to save his life. To fix #1...Pay attention when you pack. To fix #2...Be able to find your handle, or don't jump....did this person make the first main attempt low? Did he spend to much time trying to deloy the main? Why could they not find the reserve handle?....It's been in the pocket all 6 times I have had to use it. My point is an AAD is a back up.....If you can't save your own life you should look into bowling. I am saying you should quit....but you should really think about the fact that you should have died. Again....How many "Saves" have been do to the jumper being knocked out vs the jumper doing something stupid? Not many. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #12 February 19, 2003 Right, I think we both are misunderstanding each others' posts. I was under the impression that you were not pro-Cypres as a last backup. But apparently you are. My post was disregarding the incident at the top of the thread, just stating that if you are unconcious your only chance will be a Cypres. But since you see the Cypres as I do, no point in arguing. One "real" cypres save is enough to make it a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dex 0 #13 February 19, 2003 Quote It is a pretty lame argument for AAD's. I think it's a perfectly valid argument for AAD's; It's one of the ways you can justify an AAD to yourself (or to nagging people you might respect) without having to admit you aren't perfect. Lots of people who use that argument will never forget to pull; on the other hand, if not for the fear of knocking themselves out, some skydivers would not wear an AAD. noone ever thinks they will not be able to pull *their* handles... If you ever do a jump where you belive you can't get to a handle you are a dumbass... so without this lame argument in favor of AAD's people will die. I wear an AAD... just in case someone else knocks me out.. because obviously I'm perfect otherwise.... ;) I wouldn't jump if I thought I wasn't going to pull all the necessary handles... Since I believe all skydivers feel this way... and some still go in due to no pulls well I guess some of us aren't perfect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #14 February 19, 2003 Nope still a lame argument. I wear one beacause shit happens....I don't preach the people getting knocked out story. I think they are great things.... But most "saves" are from negligence, not being unconsious. I just wish people would be truthful... A better statment would be "I have an AAD because shit happens, and I would rather not die even if I fuck up." I see no problem with that....Just don't rely on the damn thing. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #15 February 19, 2003 Quote What I cannot understand is "He could not locate his reserve handle". Second/third hand info: This guy is an experienced jumper. His pull-out was stuck. He cut away. He couldn't locate his reserve handle. He apperently had just changed gear. His old rig had a metal ripcord. His new rig has a pillow. He apparently kept searching for metal instead of fabric... Cypres saved him. He was only the first who had a reserve ride at our DZ that day... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #16 February 19, 2003 QuoteThis guy is an experienced jumper. You have to define *experienced* 100 jumps? 1000? 10,000? This guy was not *experienced* with a pillow reserve. QuoteHis pull-out was stuck. Why? Did he pack it wrong? If so was he *experienced*? QuoteHe couldn't locate his reserve handle. He apperently had just changed gear. His old rig had a metal ripcord. His new rig has a pillow. He apparently kept searching for metal instead of fabric... So the real story here is: A guy just got a new rig.. He packed a malfuction with his pilot chute. He just changed from a Metal handle to a pillow, and was not able to find the handle to save his own life. Thank God he had a cool toy that managed to save his life when he could not. If he had PACKED correctly...no problem here, and no story. If he had PRACTICED the new procedures with the soft handle....No problem, and no story. I am glad he lived....but he should not have, and it should be noticed that he should have died. Other than buying a cool black box this jumper did nothing to ensure his future existance. Simple as that. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #17 February 19, 2003 I 'm sorry, are you saying that you cannot get unconcious, so that is a lame excuse for having a cypres???? Getting unconcious is as bad as "shit happens" can get, and it may not even come from a collision. You have a super weird way of thinking, man, if that's what you meant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #18 February 19, 2003 QuoteYou have to define *experienced* 100 jumps? 1000? 10,000? What I heard: > 1000 jumps But, like I said, all this is grapevine. I don't even know the guy. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 February 19, 2003 No, what I AM saying is that people who say "I have it incase I am knocked out" are using a lame excuse. The actual chances of being "saved" due to being knocked outis VERY low....has it happend? Yes. Would there be some people who DID get knocked out around if they had them? Yes. But again MOST CYPRES "SAVES" are from the jumper doing something STUPID! Not being knocked out. This jumper did something stupid....he was awake. The "I have it incase I get knocked out" Argument is lame. I bet it is NOT why most people get them. I for one, have it incase I do something remarkably STUPID. Which CAN include putting myself into a situation where I COULD be knocked out..... But I am done with this.... Its a device that CAN save you if you are knocked out....But in all probability it will most likely be used to save you after you make some very large mistake...which can include putting yourself into a position that COULD knock you out. Or in this case bad packing and just not getting to the reserve in time. What is so hard to understand about that? Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #20 February 19, 2003 Its perfectly clear to me Ron, and I agree with you 100% "in all probability it will most likely be used to save you after you make some very large mistake..." Its just that most people don't want to believe they can screw up that much.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 February 19, 2003 From the Cypres saves page from PIA. Till June 2001. 239 documented "Saves" 7 were collisions. 2.9% 2 were jumpers exiting the A/C and getting knocked out. 0.8% 2 were 2 jumpers getting BOTH shoulders dislocated. 0.8% 1 was a student that spun until blackout. 0.4% 12 Real Saves 5% 10 from being unconcious. 4.1% 2 from shoulder injury 0.8% 12 out of 239 "Saves".....That leaves 227 to "Screwed up big". See? more "saves" to stupidity than getting knocked out. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 February 19, 2003 QuoteHe apparently kept searching for metal instead of fabric... Cypres saved him LOOK, reach, peel, pull... Those simple things that are taught to students could save a life of an experienced jumper, too...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #23 February 19, 2003 Hi Ron I wanted to reply to you but you post too much so, my point is shit happen and who´s fault is it at that moment dose not really matter we can debate that when we standing on the ground (if we made it through) that jump ,I would think that if someone had 2,3 or so cypres activation in the first 100 jump or so should re think about is future in the sport cypres alone would not save the day every time (it is nor it claim to be 100% )but for those time when things go wrong I would like to think that I don´t have to pay with my life for it when so sort machine is there to use. for another point I can see on your profile that you jump what called rocket pocket canopy, from what I´ve seen in the sport 100% of the people who jump those canopy usually swoop them and 95% of those had one close call or more (too low turn hook turn uneven flair line twist ) are they should all die or broken back would be paying just about right for there screw-up .it is not a perfect world all most every one deserve a second chance AmirAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #24 February 19, 2003 Hey, I am all about having one to save your ass.... But when you have a fire...You REALLY need to look at if this sport is for you. Unless you are in the 5% of the "saves" that were incapacitated, you really screwed up big. And the FACTS show that MOST of the people who were "saved" just flat out did something stupid. 12 people were "knocked out" out of 239 So to say "I want on incase I am knocked out"....Well, it is a lot more realistic to say "I want one incase I screw up". I am glad that these 239 people lived....I just wonder if they should be jumping.... The #1 thing is to be safe...And 227 people failed at that. I have one in case I do something stupid, and should have died. I don't really think I will be knocked out....The numbers don't show it. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #25 February 19, 2003 QuoteA better statment would be "I have an AAD because shit happens, and I would rather not die even if I fuck up." That's one of the best lines I've ever seen regarding AAD use. Mind if I steal it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
