ralu 0 #1 February 27, 2003 The point is to see the overall opinion, not continuing the argue. thanks what would be a woman without her dreams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 February 27, 2003 Well, the SIM (for American/USPA jumpers) says that ALL students (anyone without a license) HAS to wear an altimeter.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauril 0 #3 February 27, 2003 In finland everyone (licensed or not) have to wear a visual altimeter on every jump. I think that students need to wear one, even if it's a s/l jump, they need it under canopy too, when they are planning the landing pattern, not only in freefall. It's hard to judge altitude under canopy when you have a couple of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpy 0 #4 February 27, 2003 Quote In finland everyone (licensed or not) have to wear a visual altimeter on every jump. I think that students need to wear one, even if it's a s/l jump, they need it under canopy too, when they are planning the landing pattern, not only in freefall. It's hard to judge altitude under canopy when you have a couple of jumps. The same in Australia. It used to be that you could not wear an alti on on jumps shorter then 10 sec but not anymore i don't think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #5 February 27, 2003 QuoteIn finland everyone (licensed or not) have to wear a visual altimeter on every jumpQuoteThe same in Australia. The Netherlands too... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 0 #6 February 27, 2003 Same in Italy We teach our student to use their alti to check their visual altitude judgment. In case of doubt about the altimeter they are taught to pull immediately Bruno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #7 February 27, 2003 Always have to wear one. I'm thinking of the canopy ride as well as the freefall.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralu 0 #8 February 27, 2003 Quote Always have to wear one. I'm thinking of the canopy ride as well as the freefall. I see your point, but what do you think about this situation: at one exit, 3 jumpers got out. The first one was an experienced skydiver followed by the students ( at that jump without altimeters). The students knew that they must follow the first. All landed perfectly safe in the target area. what would be a woman without her dreams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #9 February 27, 2003 QuoteIn finland everyone (licensed or not) have to wear a visual altimeter on every jump. I think that students need to wear one, even if it's a s/l jump, they need it under canopy too, when they are planning the landing pattern, not only in freefall. It's hard to judge altitude under canopy when you have a couple of jumps. In Denmark,students use visual alti,licened can chouse between visual or audiable(or use them both) Licened jumpers that are planing a jump whith less than 10 sek of freefall and to land in water can jump whith out any alti at all. Personaly i use my visual and my loved Pro-Track,just cant see why i shouldnt Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #10 February 27, 2003 That's assuming there's experienced people on the load. My home dz has a 182, and very often there's only students on the lift (with the instructor)____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralu 0 #11 February 27, 2003 ok.... at my dz we have a biplane with 12 places and there never were more than half students in it. ralu what would be a woman without her dreams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #12 February 27, 2003 QuoteThe students knew that they must follow the first Why would they do that? Normaly do experienced(licened jumpers in this case)have different kind of cannopies.I usaly spin my crossfire 99 down before i do a 180hook(only if there are space to all this fun),a student in a 200+sqft canopi will hang up there while im staring to pack my chute..If he would follow my fligth he probaly will get hurt,while a hook looks way lower from above than from the ground..I belive that studentes (atleast total newbies)should make an aproch like a U and cut of 300ft each side of it(rughly) Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralu 0 #13 February 27, 2003 It's all about self sacrifice... The experienced one takes a student canopy ( Manta ) and is making the "U" approach for that jump. ralu what would be a woman without her dreams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #14 February 27, 2003 okay never seen an expericened jumper do such a action,however it sounds like a cool idea,but still mean that they ALL should wear visual alti Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #15 February 27, 2003 QuoteQuoteIn finland everyone (licensed or not) have to wear a visual altimeter on every jumpQuoteThe same in Australia. The Netherlands too... Peter, do we have to wear one for a (planned) water jump? The BVR says nothing about that I believe, so the answer would be, Yes? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #16 February 27, 2003 Quote The Netherlands too... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter, do we have to wear one for a (planned) water jump? Hi Saskia, I don't want to hijack the thread into "merits and shortcomings of the dutch basic safety regulations" (the BVR) but uh... yes we have to. Makes you wonder if everybody always requests an exemption (par. 703 BVR) - " They Are Violating The BSR's - Somebody Spank Em!!!" "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #17 February 27, 2003 Two comments: First wearing an altimeter on a water jump is very expensive. Every time you dip an altimeter in water, it has to go back to the factory for overhaul. Consequently, few people do more than 10 second delays on water jumps. Secondly, "follow the leader" is a great way to teach landing patterns. It helps if the "leader" is jumping a similar canopy. Even with first-time tandem students, I tell them "we are going to follow the green tandem for landing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #18 February 27, 2003 Quote First wearing an altimeter on a water jump is very expensive Well, uh... we don't do that either, taking our altimeters for a swim - but Saskia asked me if we were obliged to, under our equivalent of the BSR. So I checked and apparently we are... (everybody knows BSR to be an acronym for 'BullShitRules', isn't it? Quote Secondly, "follow the leader" is a great way to teach landing patterns. I do that also, with my tandempassengers - makes great conversation. Teaching it to the static-line students however has the built in problem that when jumper A looks down on jumper B from 1500ft upwind it might seem as if A is at 500ft on a certain spot downwind while in fact he is much more upwind than it appears for the untrained eye. In fact for students to locate another canopy at a certain place and altitude (assuming the other canopy didn't land already) is almost impossible. When you 'follow the other tandem' it is a whole different balgame, with - if I might ad - you overseeing the student and correcting him if necessary. On your typical Cessna 182 static line operation you have students land at 45-60 sec intervals. You on the tandem left at the same run as the other tandem and created some vertical separation during the descent - just enough not to get in eachothers way and for the catchers to help tandem 1 and then dash for tandem 2, usually... Assigning 'an experienced jumper to lead' to every static line student is simply impractical, static line students following eachother is something I always try to discourage - using strong words if necessary... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #19 February 27, 2003 Every student should wear a visual altimeter until they at least get off AFF. At some later time, they might want to consider doing one jump without one to get used to judging altitude without an altimeter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #20 February 28, 2003 QuoteEvery student should wear a visual altimeter until they at least get off AFF. At some later time, they might want to consider doing one jump without one to get used to judging altitude without an altimeter. ------------------------------------------------------------ I'm from a small DZ in Canada. Here first jumps are made with no alti. (IAD) Reason: Chest mounts present a danger to chest area on bad face plant landings. wrist/hand mounts can get entangled in opening parachutes or impair use of emergency handles. Extra time would have to be spent teaching proper alti use. from first jump on ...we learn to count" develop time sense"and make visual references" eyeballing ". This is easy stuff to teach. alti use comes later"freefall more than 10sec". So no student can take up instrument flight until they prove themselves competent at VFR. That includes canopy control. What some call head down we call feet up! mike.----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #21 February 28, 2003 If I want to practice my ability to recognize altitude visually, I just won't look at my altimeter. I'll still wear it in case I am completely uncertain and have a moment of panic though. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
