safety vs. jump numbers per month

[Pammi 0]

I posed a question in response to something in the incidents forum, but decided to move it here to respond as it seemed to becoming more of a safety issue then something that should be talked about in incidents. Here's the gist and my response (opinions are always welcome, if not agreed with )

Original question:
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


but usually only made 2-5 jumps per month.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This comment concerns me a little because sometimes that is all Merrick and I can do, especially with two jumpers in the family. Obviously someone jumping more often is preferred, but is it a safety concern for those of use who can't do more then that? It's distressing to think that unless I can find a way to change that for us, that perhaps we're putting ourselves in danger??


Good response from Phree:

Quote

Low currency should be treated just like low jump numbers. Keeping a light loading, staying on a more docile then agressive canopy, staying away from high proformance landings and other things that are preached to those just getting off student status should be the same thing that jumpers that are unable to jump much should do as well.

My response:
Agreed Phreezone, I appreciate the input. I certainly try to keep things simple for myself with the slow climbing jump numbers I'm stuck with right now. Thanks!

It sounds like there were a number of factors playing into this incident as well. I've landed off myself in Houston and didn't really think twice about it...just knew it was the better option. But I think training your mind on scenerios and what your response will be is important as well. Practicing in your mind and on the ground. Then the old "if it doesn't feel right...". The bad wrist was perhaps another 'link' in the chain of events.

Pam


Another thought from ScratchTX:

Quote

I'm sure many experienced people will chime in here, but here's my opinion from someone who, maybe like you, frequently hovers on the edge of currency.

Yes.

I think it does put you/me in more danger. There is no doubt that things are LESS automatic, familiar, and second nature to me the less I jump. The "window of awareness" is smaller, the less current I am. If it's really been a while, I do a solo -- not because I think I've forgotten how to fly with someone but because I know that more of my brain is going to be filled up with "wow! freefall again! whoo hoo!" and less left over for other stuff. And you never know when you're going to need to think about the other stuff. Even when I *think* I am still very heads up, aware, etc., I have noticed over ther years that currency absolutely makes a difference.

That said -- as Phreezone said, following the advice given to students, as well as doing a bunch of extra thinking/reviewing, trying to use good judgement, and getting real about the increased risk helps compensate for it, I think.

(Also, it isn't black and white -- of course, being marginally current doesn't automatically mean you will dangerously screw up, any more than being current and experienced means you are immune from making bad, dangerous decisions)

And lastly, my further thoughts:

Quote

I'm sure many experienced people will chime in here, but here's my opinion from someone who, maybe like you, frequently hovers on the edge of currency.

I don't think 2-5 jumps a month is 'hovering on the edge of currency", myself.

Quote

If it's really been a while, I do a solo --

I agree, absolutely. I think it's always a good idea to get 'reaquainted' with things before trying to turn points with your buddies after not having jumped in a while.

I think Phree hit it on the head with his previous reply that, of course, I will not fly as well as someone who gets to jump very frequently. I obviously will need to understand that and not push my limits because "hey, now I have 'whatever-number' of jumps, so I can do 'such-and-such". I really do believe that it's as much about frequency as it is about numbers. If it takes someone 2 months to get 100 jumps and someone else 2 years, obviously the person who got the numbers in a shorter amount of time is going to be the safer, better flyer.

Numbers is such a bullshit thing to go by, in my opinion. If you just look at numbers alone, it doesn't tell you the whole story. Sure, it's a good guide with nothing else to really go by to be able to tell someone's skill level you may be getting ready to jump with, but it's not the ONLY guide. Nor do I feel like anyone is necessarily unsafe because of not doing X-number of jumps a month. There are some real dummies with a lot of numbers who lack common sense. I've seen people drink before they jump, I've seen them jump things that were friggin insane for their size and experience, etc, etc. Now THAT I won't be doing, which still makes me the safer flyer/canopy pilot regardless of my jump numbers per month. Is the older person on the road driving necessarily a safer driver then myself because he has more experience?

Thoughts? If someone can't do 'x-number' of jumps over 'x-amount' of time, should they just call it a day and quit jumping? I'd love to be one of those people that can jump their ass off with no thought to my responsibilities, but as a parent, it's not going to happen. Perhaps if Merrick and I didn't have kids I'd be more comfortable with saying "fuck it - we'll eat Ramen noodles this month", but it's not going to happen. Yet I don't want to quit. I think the fact that I have to be safe FOR my children is more motivation to be extra cautious if anything. It's been an ongoing frustration at the attitude that is sometimes portrayed that skydiving is an all or nothing sport, not meant for those who simply enjoy it and are trying to be patient until such time they can give more to it.

Pammi

[Merrick 0]

Quote

If it takes someone 2 months to get 100 jumps and someone else 2 years, obviously the person who got the numbers in a shorter amount of time is going to be the safer, better flyer.

A better flyer... maybe, but safer? I disagree, not totally, but generally disagree. I've seen people with several 100s - 1000s of jumps running to the plane with leg & chest-straps dangling, and a half eaten burger hanging out of thier mouth. I ask, has this person really concentrated on their safety? Look at the fatalities page, most fatalities are among jumpers who have 200-500 jumps... Complacency kills. Pam and I are both are very heads up jumpers, we check & re-check each other's gear, check our handles 5 times or so in the plane, and simply watch out for one another (Like when Pam hears/sees me saying/doing something stupid). People who rack up their jump numbers as quickly as possible tend to think (even if it's subconciously) that nothing will happen to them... Yet, we find ourselves wanting to be just like them. We'd love to make 10 jumps a weekend, but our REAL life says we can't. Does our 2-5 jumps a month make us unsafe.. Hell no it doesn't... for me, it makes me more concious of everything that can go wrong, and has kept me constantly on my toes. The reason I can say this is because there was a summer when we were making 5-10 jumps or so every weekend, and yes I started to *shrug* certain things off, simply out of complacency.

Sorry, just had to add my .02cents, that attitude that you have to be willing to give up everything & everyone in your life or you're not a real skydiver has chapped my ass for a long time. I love skydiving, and I'm not going to quit, it's that simple!
Blues!

Merrick

[slotperfect 7]

My comment is in reference to the jumpers who stay current by USPA standards, but jump rather infrequently.

An infrequent jumper can still be safe, as long as they stay within safe parameters. That is what I interpreted Phree's response to mean.

I also agree that it's not all about the numbers either.

A personal example:

I have 2735 jumps, and have made 53 jumps in the past three weeks. I consider myself to be current and "in the groove" as a skydiver at the moment. My performance/spatial awareness in free fall and landing approaches are excellent right now.

I have made 326 demo jumps in my career . . . stadiums, city street intersections, amphitheaters, etc. Some pretty tight areas. I consider myself an experienced demo jumper.

Now, I have not made a demo jump since June 2002, and that area was not that tight, and my canopy was HUGE. The last tight area demo I did with a smaller canopy was in 1995. I am a PRO rating holder, and I keep that current every year by meeting the jump number and accuracy requirements.

Now, let's say I get a call from a friend to do a demo in front of Raleigh Memorial Auditorium or some such tight area with few outs. He says he'll provide me with a StarTrac I, a canopy type which I have a bazillion jumps on, including most of my demos, but we are leaving in two hours.

Do you think I would do this demo? Numbers or not, I would turn it down. It is outside my safety parameters as far as demos are concerned at this point in time.

Now, let's say the timing changed, and the demo was in two weeks. Say I could get the rig today and start tuning up my target accuracy at Raeford. Two weeks worth of diligent training and I'd be ready to go.

So, it's not about the numbers at all. It's not about currency, either.

AND, you are welcome to jump with me any time . . . low numbers, infrequency and all.

John

[Michele 1]

Quote

Look at the fatalities page, most fatalities are among jumpers who have 200-500 jumps...

I wonder if there would be a way to correlate, if the data were available, how long those jumpers were jumping. If they got the jumps over a short time period, it may demonstrate something; likewise, if they got the jumps over a long period of time, that may demonstrate something as well.

Just curious as to the info. I may try to hunt it up later today or tomorrow, and see if there's a dataset that points in one direction or another...

Hmmmmmmm.....

As a low number/long time jumper, this is an interesting question to me. My .02 is that I am neither more dangerous nor more safe than my routine makes me. And I will say that I have found myself taking additional precautions that others don't - such as, if the person giving me a pin check goes "hm, well, it's prolly o.k.", I go hunt someone who knows my equipment and get a second opinion (Steve? Karen? LOL!), or making sure the conditions are what I want for the jump.

I think there is something to be said for my still-very-present fears and apprehensions which is tied directly into the amount of jumps I can manage in a month (or two), and I do know that the first jump of the day is the most difficult for me...and that this will go away if I can ever get more time in the air...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[indyz 1]

Quote

I wonder if there would be a way to correlate, if the data were available, how long those jumpers were jumping. If they got the jumps over a short time period, it may demonstrate something; likewise, if they got the jumps over a long period of time, that may demonstrate something as well.

I ran up a little spread sheet today. I went through my stack of Parachutists (about the last years worth) and entered all of the incident reports that reported both number of jumps and time in the sport.

Here's what I found:

When considering all of the incident reports:
Sample size: 17
Average number of jumps: 1025.71
Average time in sport (years): 6.97
Average jumps per month: 12.34

When considering low-time jumpers (I chose the arbitrary value of 500 jumps or less):
Sample size: 9
Average number of jumps: 249.56
Average time in sport (years): 1.94
Average jumps per month: 11.2

When considering "experienced" jumpers (more than 500 jumps):
Sample size: 8
Average number of jumps: 1898.88
Average time in sport (years): 12.63
Average jumps per month: 13.62

Conclusions:
First of all, the sample size is far to small to do any real statistical analysis. Having access to, say, Craig Poxon's database would really be helpful. Also, this includes anybody who died while skydiving, including drowning after landing, medical conditions, etc., which further skews the results. More error is introduced by averaging the lifetime number of jumps with time in the sport. It may be possible, for example, that a jumper made many skydives and was extremely current ten years ago, but has since slown down to only a couple of jumps per month.

Because of the small sample size and many possible sources for error, I will let the reader draw their own conclusions.

My data is attached.

currency.html

[bwilling 0]

wow, this thread hits really close to home for me, because I recently went round and round with myself over whether or not I was going to quit completely, just because I know that I don't have the time or financial resources to be as current and regular as I'd like to be...

I made about 550 jumps from 1978-1983, then quit, got married, had a family, you know, all that stuff.

But I got divorced a couple of years ago, and decided to start skydiving again... I made about 70 jumps that first year back, then had another layoff due to a shoulder injury (ice hockey related, not skydiving!) that combined with several other things, led to another long (over a year now!) layoff...

So I decided to just quit, and sell my gear.

But I couldn't. I'm just not done jumping yet. There's too many things I haven't done yet... I mean, I''ve never made a ballon jump, or been to a WFFC, or flown head down with someone with blue (or orange, or purple) hair! And my oldest son will be 18 soon, and how cool would it be if I got to accompany him on a tandem skydive!?!

So I decided to make yet another comeback, but to take a conservative approach. I'm currently trying to upsize my canopies (will I be the first to have ever done this, and thus owe beer?) I plan to (even though we can potentially jump year round here in TX) take a more 'seasonal' approach, and skip the more sporadic winter months, concentrating my jumping (which will be limited to maybe 80 jumps a year) to the more predictable, better weather months, and to make more jumps on fewer weekends (instead of 2-3 jumps a weekend, I'll make 4-6 jumps every other weekend, which is better for me anyway, because I have joint custody of the kids)... I'm thinking this approach will allow me to continue jumping in a safe manner, and allow me to jump often enough to feel comfortable in the air, and enjoy it.

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[Dumpster 0]

Thats' just about the same approach I'll be taking this year, too- to balance my skydiving with the rest of my life. The wife and I like to ride, too, and we didn't near enough in last the year. So I'll be at the DZ every other Saturday, making from 4-6 jumps also, and perhaps spend a weekend there once or twice. I have some goals, but they are consevative.

Easy Does It

[PhreeZone 20]

Side note on the numbers and currency. We have a few jumpers that are infrequent jumpers (they started 2 weeks after me and are yet to hit 100 jumps but I've done a few more then that) I will not take any of these jumpers out freeflying simply since they do not have the air currency to beable to deal with the increased issues of freeflying. I also have recommended time after time not to downsize since they are not jumping often enough to justifing downsizing. Every trip up is just like a post student dive with them since just when they start to learn something they take a few weekends off and that muscle memory fades. The Tunnel is such a great tool since it give immediate feedback and you just hop right back in and you can build memory fast, numbers and currency are the same way.

I'm preparing to make a trip to warmer, jumpable conditions next weekend. I'm not going to be throwing 90's and 180 carves this weekend since i have no currency. I'm actually looking at upsizing again just for the added safety factor.

Its been said so many times and it remains so true.... Its better to be more current then it is to have shiney gear.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[hookitt 1]

Quote

So I decided to make yet another comeback, but to take a conservative approach. I'm currently trying to upsize my canopies (will I be the first to have ever done this, and thus owe beer?)

welcome back...or shall I say welcome to not leaving the sport? Heck I don't know. You will definitely not be the first to upsize. But it will be the first time YOU upsized

People upsize for different reasons. Most of the time it's due to injury. Your reasoning is much better ON!!!

4-6 jumps isn't alot but it will keep you in the air, and probably a bit more sane. I'll agree that more jumps in a weekend is much better than only a couple every weekend. ( I'll just bet, you throw in a few 12 or more jumps weekends now and then)

Speaking of sane... It's beautiful out today, low winds.... But I had to work. There's always tomorrow, (crossing fingers) I have a Solo in mind. Yep... a solo.

c-ya

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mustard 0]

I remember when I first started. It was in the fall, early winter in Colorado. And I was so afraid that if I went uncurrent, I would quit, because the fear gets so huge when you haven't made a jump recently. So I jumped every weekend, or every other weekend at the outside, and made 300 jumps my first year. It was an obsession, but I also knew that if I got far enough away from jumping, I might not come back. That didn't seem to be an option, because skydiving was like the shot in the arm that all of get once in awhile, falling in love, taking up skydiving, it's all the same life-changing event.

Now I'm 60. Wow, how did that happen? I was minding my own business and here came skydiving and changed everything forever! I don't know when I will have to stop jumping, but I hope it's not for a while. I'm having *way* too much fun!

***
DJan

[Mad47 0]

I believe that safety is not only a gear check. Safety =awareness & ability to properly react in dangerous situations. All this comes with experience (jumps numbers) and currency. Would you want to fly to Europe in a plane operated by pilot, who only flyz once a month?

The fact that “most fatalities are among jumpers who have 200-500 jumps” is a totally different issue.

[hookitt 1]

Yo Mad... what the heck is your avetar?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[indyz 1]

Quote

Yo Mad... what the heck is your avetar?

Sputnik!

[dex 0]

As far as safety goes being current vrs uncurrent will give you a few advantages.. you will know your opening sequence better and prolly detect a opening issue sooner... you will be more up to snuff with what your landing picture looks like. There are other examples of how being current can make you safer, but most safety related factors you can practice fairly well without jumping. Just like practicing your emergency procedures prepares you for your next cutaway, thinking through a jump when you are in a quiet place can keep you from losing your "edge" so quickly.

If I was an infrequent jumper I'd keep my opening altitudes up around the A license or student alts. (Depending on how infrequent). Giving me the extra time I may need to clear a mal or decide to chop it. Also giving myself plenty of time to setup and enter the landing pattern and feel my canopy again. I'd make sure to land in the "studenty" areas of the dz's I was at so I could do the relaxed landing patterns that are common in those areas.

If I had landing issues and cash was the reason I was not jumping as much as I'd like I'd invest in a hopnpop day hopefully with someone giving me tips and shootin vids...

As long as the infequent jumper exersices good judgement I can't think of a reason they would be dangerously unsafe.

Quote

It's been an ongoing frustration at the attitude that is sometimes portrayed that skydiving is an all or nothing sport, not meant for those who simply enjoy it and are trying to be patient until such time they can give more to it.

Some things in skydiving are "all or nothing" devote a shitload of time or don't bother. I doubt many people on the 300 way were making recurrency jumps the day before, but I jumped with lots of people this year who could only do a handfull of jumps a month and I never felt unsafe with any of them.

[bwilling 0]

Quote

But it will be the first time YOU upsized

Actually, now that I think about it, it won't be the first time that I upsized! When I was jumping before, I went from a standard size Strata Cloud (230 sf) to the 'XL' Cloud (270sf)... so I won't owe beer!

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[Mad47 0]

This is just a friendly reminder that Russians were first

[tlshealy 0]

I,m an older Jumper, I've made about 1380 jumps since 1976, I used to jump every weekend until I joined the army in 1980 spent a couple of years on the parachute team, got married, got out , didn't really care if I jumped or not . Even went 5 or 6 years without jumping(which my wife liked) Then kind of got back into it. Now I make about 30 Jumps per year. I really enjoy every jump I make, but I am always very safety conscious, because I don't jump a lot. I always check my gear before I go and run over emergency procedures. I'm a rigger so I can even pop my reserve check it out and reclose it. But I don't try to do stuff thats over my head and currency, sure I try to surf a little but thats on a 160 Tri loaded at 1.3. Thats all the excitement me and my banged up old knees can take. After 4 or 5 jumps I feel my currency coming back quickly, but I don't get on any big free fly loads or grovel my way on to any top 16 way sequential loads. I keep it simple and fun but still try to learn something on every jump. I don't think that I am a danger to myself or anyone else and I try to recognize my own limitations. I've seen very current hot swoopers appear to be almost overconfident in the air and on landing almost to the point of scaring me a little. I think safety is a state of mind no matter what your jump numbers are, although you still need to develop and sharpen skills.
Just my $.02
Blue Skies
Tad

[SkyMissy 0]

Hey Merick and Pam, how y'all doin? Another random post from me, the poster child for currency. I feel your pain! I agree with you guys and the general consensus. You are probably safer the more jumps you can make per whatever, and all that. That said, raise your hand if you are in this for that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you're locked in the fallout shelter and no harm can befall you. I'm not. Where's the "This is supposed to be fun" forum? didn't somebody do a "posts to jumps ratio" thread around here once. I tend to think that too much academic knowledge combined with not much experience leads to a lot of opinions that are not based on reality. I am very sporadic with my jumping, moreso than Pam and Merrick, and I'll be damned if I'm going to die anytime soon, or treat skydiving like it's knitting. Have fun, and ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THIS SPORT KILLS OR GET OUT!

Peace!

________________________________________________
Mike

[gemini 0]

Pammi:

Since I made the original comment in Incidents, let me explain.

The jumper involved appeared to be a very safe skydiver. He was very careful in the air/under canopy and always made fairly straight in approaches and seemed to be aware of where he was and where other jumpers were around him.

He doesn't have the opportunity to jump much. And sometimes comes out after a month or two lapse and only does one jump. As a comparison, he has 102 jumps while his best friend who went through AFF with him has about 700 in less than 3 years.

It is obvious that the jumper made the wrong decision to try to make it back to the dz after a long spot. The question is why did he make that decision?

The sequence of events helps to understand what really happened. There was a long spot that the other three jumpers recognized during freefall or during the breakaway track. (In fact one of the jumpers stated before climb-out to watch the spot since the group in front had taken some time in the door.) The jumper involved held his track longer than the other three and had a longer than normal snivel. When his canopy opened, it snapped him 180 degrees and he was flying away from the dz at about 1500 ft while attempting to stow his slider.

It was obvious at this point to the other three jumpers that the fourth was going to have to land out. He was over a large open pasture with no trees or obstacles. There was another open field between the jumper and the dz.

He was a mile downwind from the landing area and at least 1/2 mile from the dz perimeter. There are very high power poles with multiple lines on the dz perimeter.

Winds were approximately 10-15 mph. Jumper was loading the canopy at about 1:1.4.

Based on these facts, what would your decision have been?

The other three jumpers all said they would have landed off instead of trying to make it back if they had been at his altitude and loading.

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, I recognized we were a long way out and tracked long enough to be clear, checked the location of the other three jumpers. waved and pulled.

On deployment I immediately turned toward the dz while watching where the other jumpers were and started my run to the dz. I checked my altimeter (2000 ft), then reached up and stowed the slider, unstowed my brakes, and with my brakes over my fingers, went to rear risers.

I told myself that if I had not crossed the dz perimeter by 1000 ft, I was going to immediately turn back into the wind and land in the field just South of the dz. It was very muddy, but muddy and a long walk beats the alternative anytime. I also load my canopy at 1:1.4.

Back to the other jumper....He has stated he was having trouble holding rear risers and had released his brakes, but did not have them in his hands. He barely cleared the power lines and instead of taking the downwind landing attempted to turn back into the wind... after fighting to get his hands back into his toggles. He stated he tried a flat turn, but witnessess said it was almost a hook turn. Time to impact from the time he started trying to get his toggles, 3 seconds.

There are mistakes all over the place and I think you can pick most of them out.

My only explanation as to why he made so many wrong decisions was that he was not as current as he should have been and the wrong decisions began to compound. From trying to make it back and passing up two alternative landing areas, from committing to clear the power lines without realizing that would require a downwinder, from being at approximately 70 ft without having his brakes in his hands, to not realizing he was not doing a flat turn.

The more current you are the more instinctive your decisions will be. You have a better feel of your are flying ability and recognize where your safety margins are without even thinking about it. You react to situations based on your training and experience often without concious thought faster, and you can consider more alternatives.

We all think differently and have different safety margins for ourselves. Even if you have only a few jumps, by expanding your safety margins you can keep yourself out of a "created" situation that you cannot handle.

You are the only person who can decide if you are ready to jump each time you are at the dz. If the winds are higher than you like, don't jump. If the spot is long, ask for a go-around.

If you have a long spot, pick out suitable alternative landing areas long before you need them. And most important, don't be afraid to land off.

Blue skies,

Jim

[ScratchTX 0]

Good thread, good comments. Thanks for bringing it over here to keep it going, Pammi. I don't have a whole lot more to add. Summarizing, seems like the main ideas are, really, that there are many factors to "safety." Some are independent of currency/frequency of jumps, some aren't. I still think that all other things being equal (that is, using good judgement re:gear choice and jump types; being consistent and thorough about gear checks, being ever vigilant about complacency, etc.) the person who jumps more frequently is likely to be "safer" in a difficult situation. For all the reasons already given here.

But I do want to clarify what I said at first -- I think if someone is realistic about all the risk factors and takes actions to balance that, they can end up even. If I thought that I was really putting myself at signifcantly higher risk every time I jumped by having such low jump numbers per month, I'd stop jumping.


(No I wouldn't -- who am I kidding?!?)

[listo 0]

Well Merrick and Pammi........I will say this to you guys. You both seem like safe and heads up skydivers. Being parents will add to your personal safety issues that you will have to constantly evaluate. The USPA sets guide lines for currency and I would say that as long as you stay within those guide lines......you should be ok.

Now, to take this one step further. The things that you both have addressed as far as jump numbers vs. experience/ currency is dead on the money. I know guys out there with 700-800 jumps that I don't expect to live much longer. I honestly believe that their jump numbers give them a false sense of reality. Note, I said reality and not security. In my personal opinion, there is no security in skydiving much the same that there isn't luck either.

If you take your own personal currency and way it against what you are setting out to do on each jump in a realistic manner, I don't see a problem. The thing I notice the most is that there aren't just one or two types of skydivers out there. There are as many different types as there are skydivers themselves. Not everyone is going to be able to perform on the same level as everyone else, but if we recognize what our own personal limits are without letting pride or egos get in the way, then we will all be a little bit safer.

Things like gear checks, proper gear maintenance and emergency procedures is something that everyone needs to do everytime they get to the dropzone. I always tell my students as well as low timers that there are two times you need to go over emergency procedures and "make sure you do them each time please". (that is my quote to students ya'll) First time is when you get your gear on for the first jump of the weekend, the second time is when the canopy has deployed. If a person does this each time, then they will always be in a habit of checking their handles on the ground as well as knowing pretty much where handles are if you can't look at them in an emergency. (ie....in a line twist with your head pinned back looking up, it is impossible to see your handles)

The other really important thing is for every jumper to have a plan (dirt dive) for each jump. Even if the plan is to just go out and see what can be pulled off, it is still a plan. Dirt dive the skydive and skydive the dirt dive.

Keep your head on and don't let adrenaline take over and make you think you can do something you have never done before. In other words.....plan your skydives from take off to landing and stick to that exact plan unless an emergency defers you from your "flight plan".

The most important thing about skydiving is to remember to always have fun. Never let other people's opinions or words get you worked up. You will know if you have done something wrong. If you haven't, then just say "oK" and move on. Arguments will take your mind off of what you are doing as well as take away from the fun that we are all out here to instill in our lives by doing what we do.

Have fun, be smart and skydive when ever and how ever you can. If you fall out of currency, grab a coach and go get current. Don't let the skygods intimidate you......usually they are just out to inflate their own egos even more by belittleing someone else, but at the same time.....sometimes if you look beyond their words and more to the message, you might pick up something.

Have fun, be smart and skydive when ever and how ever you can

After all.....even the guys/ladies with tons of jumps had to start out somewhere. God didn't just materialize people with hundreds or thousands of jumps

Keep it real folks.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Pammi 0]

Quote

Hey Merick and Pam, how y'all doin? Another random post from me, the poster child for currency. I feel your pain! I agree with you guys and the general consensus. You are probably safer the more jumps you can make per whatever, and all that. That said, raise your hand if you are in this for that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you're locked in the fallout shelter and no harm can befall you. I'm not. Where's the "This is supposed to be fun" forum? didn't somebody do a "posts to jumps ratio" thread around here once. I tend to think that too much academic knowledge combined with not much experience leads to a lot of opinions that are not based on reality. I am very sporadic with my jumping, moreso than Pam and Merrick, and I'll be damned if I'm going to die anytime soon, or treat skydiving like it's knitting. Have fun, and ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THIS SPORT KILLS OR GET OUT!

Peace!

Hey Mike!! Thanks for the post, I appreciate it. I agree with the "I'm doing this for fun" sentiment. Sure I'd love to be a badass jumper, flying my slots with ease and swooping in, but it ain't going to happen anywhere in the very near future. I'm okay with that. I don't intend on flying camera soon, nor teaching students. My only intention is getting out there and having some fun as safely as I can. *shrug*

I appreciate the comments on here and everyone's opinions. You too Gemini...I hope you know I was just thinking outloud and expressing my own opinions, not trying to question your earlier post.

After thinking about it further, honestly, no offense to anyone here, but I don't care about anyone else's thoughts about my jumping except my husband's and kids'. I do it for myself and *I* feel I'm safe, that I continue to do everything I can to learn and stay safe, so if someone doesn't agree, they don't have to jump with me, it's cool and I would respect that. It's really that simple. I won't be quitting or trying to 'fix' my jump numbers for anyone. I'm doing what I can when I can already, not much else I can do

After all, we all know what opinions are like. And we all have em!


Pammi

[jfields 0]

Pammi & Merrick,

I'm in the same boat you are. For what it's worth, I think the fact that you question the whole issue is an indication that you are taking it seriously. Jump numbers don't tell the tale, or differentiate what you can and cannot do. What is important is your attitude towards safety, and the awareness you have of your limitations.

I have over a hundred jumps, and almost all the requirements for my C license, but my currency (or lack thereof) keeps me with an "educated newbie" mindset. I have no intention of downsizing my canopy, freeflying or trying to swoop. I don't think I have a solid enough foundation bellyflying and canopy flying to progress any further. Half of each weekend I go is spent re-familiarizing myself, rather than moving forward with my skills.

A few months ago, I was at a DZ, getting ready to do a simple 2-way RW jump with someone there. As it sometimes goes, the simple 2-way changed into a complicated 4-way. I expressed my hesitations on the jump, and the desire to keep it easy. I got told that with my jump numbers, I'd be fine. Then some more people piled into the jump, taking it up to something like an 8-way. The dive plan was changing dramatically at 2-minutes to boarding. Despite the fact that I was the one with the idea for the original 2-way in the first place, I bumped myself off the jump, because I wasn't comfortable with it. It was too much, and too late. Had the plan been an 8-way from the beginning, with me in a simple role in the base, with repeated dirt dives and good load organizing, I would have done it. The chaotic nature of the jump and the lack of practice were my deciding factors.

You can continue to be an occasional jumper and enjoy the sport. You just have to be realistic in your expectations. Until my jumping gets a whole lot more frequent, I'll never be a swoop god. I'll never be good enough to be on a 4-way RW team. I'll never be on the cool really big jumps. However, nothing says I can't have fun. As long as I stay within my self-imposed limits and keep focused on safety, I think I'm okay to continue jumping.

One of the jumpers that started well after me piled on like 500 jumps. He gave me his unrequested opinion, which was that I was an idiot and should just hang it up for good. He was young, full of himself, and thought he knew it all. I just shook my head and chuckled with some dark humor when I later heard he broke some bones on a botched hook turn or something. He had currency, but his ego outstripped his actual abilities.

Be calm and conservative, and enjoy your jumps.

[gemini 0]

Quote

I think the fact that you question the whole issue is an indication that you are taking it seriously.

Well said. Your realistic attitude towards your own abilities is a huge safety factor.

Quote

One of the jumpers that started well after me piled on like 500 jumps.

I did not mean to imply that total number of jumps was an indicator of safety or probability of an accident. However, I do think in a lot of cases the frequency of the jumps plays a part in our ability to quickly respond to changes and problems.

Without the realistic review of one's own skills as mentioned above however, even the frequency of jumps is questionable.

Most of us know jumpers who we will not jump with. Their jump numbers don't usually come into the "jump or no jump" equation. Rather it's the jumpers attitude about safety and performance, at least in my decision process.

Quote

and thought he knew it all

This is a common problem in a lot of areas not just skydiving. Unfortunately, in skydiving errors caused by over confidence can be fatal. How many times have you heard other jumpers say "See that guy? He will be the next one." Usually they are confident, aggressive, downsizing rapidly , and very opinionated.

Quote

Be calm and conservative, and enjoy your jumps.

Again, well said.

Pammi. I just wanted to make sure that you did not quit jumping because of something I said. Based on your prior comments about this issue and others, I think you probably very safety aware prior to and during your jumps.

Blue skies,

Jim

[Ron 10]

Well I throw my opinion in here...

Yes if you make very few jumps per mth you are in a much greater risk of getting hurt, or hurting someone else.

Currency is a large factor in safe skydiving.

However currency can be very hard to keep, and "current" can vary from person to person based on past experience, total experience, and attitude.

A person with 100 jumps that has not jumped in a mth vs a person with 1000 jumps that has not jumped in a mth. The person with 1000 jumps has a much better skills set to draw on, and most likley will be safer.

The longest I have gone with out a jump is 12 weeks (thanks US Army). I had 1500 jumps, and I felt uncurrent as hell jumping out of the plane.

But the way that you approach the lack of currency is the largest factor.

Ignore it....and you could end up hurt.
Pay attention to it, and take care...You could be fine.

There is no "safe" way to skydive....Risks can be reduced, but they will always be there. If that is to much for anyone that skydives to grasp...think about it...People who are current with thousands of jumps die. Sometimes they screw up, and other times...shit just happens.

You can do everything right, and still die.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334