a97virago 0 #51 February 7, 2003 I would love to see video of a good (but not swoop) landing, as I'm trying to get my mind around landing "gracefully" too! Larry A-43434 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #52 February 12, 2003 Wendy helped me out getting a bunch of vids this weekend, including my two stand-up landings (woohoo!). I'll post some on this thread this evening. Pammi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merrick 0 #53 February 12, 2003 Ahhh... ya' still flared too high! Blues! Merrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
a97virago 0 #54 February 12, 2003 Boy, it's tough when even your husband is critiquing you! Larry A-43434 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #55 February 12, 2003 lol I bet your household is interesting to say the least. You guys crack me up, but it is awesome to have two skydivers in the same house though. How high was she flaring and was it a smooth flare or a stabbing flare? Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #56 February 12, 2003 Someone is just jealous he didn't get to jump in the delightful weather Life is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merrick 0 #57 February 13, 2003 Quote Someone is just jealous he didn't get to jump in the delightful weather ABSOF**KINLUTELY! lol Quote How high was she flaring and was it a smooth flare or a stabbing flare? The flare was good... even AND fluid (not too fast, not too slow - I'd have to watch the vid again to be sure), just about 4 or so feet too high. I'll make sure she posts it tonight. We definately have an interesting home life, it's a lot of fun w/two skydivers and two little wannabe's in the house... Take for instance this morning, the kids are watching Dexter's Laboratory before school, and I was standing there watching w/them. Dexter made this jet bike that shot him high into the air and he slammed in to the bottom of a jet-liner, he then fell out of the hole he made in the bottom of the plane and began plumetting toward the earth... me and our seven year old son start yelling "PULL DUDE, PULL!!!" and whatd'ya know, out pops a little round.... that Dexter, he's always prepared! LOL Blues! Merrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merrick 0 #58 February 15, 2003 Well, I promised I'd have her post the new video, but I've been hogging the computer. lol So, here it is, quite a bit better than the last, but any further advice is welcome, cuz I'd like to see ALL of her landings look like this or better.Pam's "Good" Landing. Blues! Merrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #59 February 15, 2003 Much, much better. Now get those legs up a little and don't let up on the brakes until you're on the ground. Remember to fly it all the way down. It was hard to tell because of the image size, but looked like the arms might be coming up a little when 2-3 ft above the ground which will increase your forward speed and really make you run. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #60 February 15, 2003 Wow, Pammi! That one was way nicer! I watched this one a lot, too, freezing it to see certain things. Again, keep in mind I have NOT a clue what I'm talking about, but I spotted a few things. 1. Are you sure your brake lines are o.k? It looks a little bit like you're either not in full flight at the start of the vid, or maybe the lines are a little short. It almost looks like the flare at the bottom is not "full", whatever the heck I mean by that. I suppose I mean the angle that you're getting at the bottom of your flare doesn't change as much as I recall some others at my DZ get...but I am not sure why, or if this is even a good/bad thing. It does plane out gently, though, so I could be all wet. 2. I noticed that in this vid, as you're touching down, you're "getting out of the chair", and not sitting back at all. Your upper body is forward, your legs are a little forward, and this allows you to move once you've touched down. Your body is ready to distribute the movement forward rather than downward. 3. I noticed you're still not even on your flare - not based on your hands' position, but based on the position of the canopy at about 4 feet up...it kinda turns towards the vid (or right) just a little, and corrects as you touch down. It's really slight, subtle, almost, but I think you're still flaring more with your right hand than your left. This was a bit of the same issue from before. In this vid, where the videographer was standing was to the right of you, and as you pass him, and he follows, the canopy turns towards him in a very gentle turn, which continues until you actually touch down and step it out. 4. You stiff-legged it a touch on first contact, reaching a little bit with your right leg. This time your left was out in front, and you were able to transfer the momentum forward. But the reaching is still there, although far less than the first vid. 5. Flare height was really nice. Forward speed was almost gone, and it was a really smooth and gentle flare. This landing is far better than the other one - there are some really excellent aspects to it: body position, flare height and timing, and smoothness of flare. You're ready to move when you touch down, legs separated slightly and a nice right/left weight transfer. Well done! Thanks for sharing it. It's great to have the comparison, and you can really see the difference in the two landings. I appreciate the opportunity to watch both, as I've learned a lot. Like I said, I am not any kind of canopy expert. Not even a little bit. I hope it helps, Pammi. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #61 February 15, 2003 Both videos are essentially the same flare technique. You are starting your flare just a bit too high and stalling the canopy before you are actually on the ground. That's why the video shows you reaching to cover the last 1'-3' of altitude. It works in the second video because you rode the canopy at 1/2 brakes until you finished the flare and stalled the canopy closer to the ground. The area for improvement is to stall the canopy/ finish the flare when you are on the ground. Just wait to start your flare a little lower. Believe in your canopy. There is plenty of lift available to you if you start your flare lower. Your landing looks really good. If you are satisfied w/ the results, stick with it.Ken "Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #62 February 15, 2003 AHEM....... She had TWO good landingsWhere's the other one ???????????????(with my voice edited out ) Life is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #63 February 15, 2003 For sure, "I'm no expet" ... but do your brake lines need shortening a bit??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #64 February 15, 2003 QuoteFor sure, "I'm no expet" ... but do your brake lines need shortening a bit??? Actually they need to be lengthend. you can see the tail being pulled down in full flight.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #65 February 15, 2003 QuoteActually they need to be lengthend. you can see the tail being pulled down in full flight. I am no expert but I vote for what skycat says, looks like the brake lines are a bit short. Since am no expert I might be saying you are giving to much flare, you should practice on every jump at high altitude the flare input you will need for the landing, with the lines you have I don't think its necesary to pull them all the way down for the flare. Good landing Pam, a bit high but the slow flare you did helped for not stalling the canopy too high. Remember both feets together until you can get it right and soft every time you try. Things to do up high: your pattern (downwind, base and upwind) then flare, while flaring look at the canopy and see how it behaves (flattens, goes in reverse, closes cells, doesn't flares, etc.), try to feel the altitude loss, bring the toggles back to full flight (slowly or it will dive). Keep practicing (with different flares input, fast, slow, not so fast etc.) until you are at about 1500 feets and you will see an improvement of the landing because you will know what you will need to do when near ground. Of course since I only have 85 jumps I might have no idea of what am talking about, so ask an instructor about the things I just said. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #66 February 15, 2003 Clearly much better, but I think some of the points I mentioned earlier still apply. She's starting her flare quite high, planing out, and stalling while still a few feet off the ground. Of course, I've got a few screen captures to show this. In flareStart.jpg, you can see the deflection of the tail, and her arms are out in front of her. She's started the flare. It's dificult to judge exactly how high she is because you can't see the ground, but I would guess she's close to 20 feet. WAY too high to flare. I disagree with SkyCat, I don't think her brake lines need lengthening. I couldn't find any frame where the tail was deflected in full flight. The next picture I want to talk about is "finished.jpg". Again, at this point, the canopy is completely stalled out and she's falling down, rather then flying forward. My overall impression of her flightpath is estimated in the drawing flightpath.jpg By the speeds she's flying at, it seems like she's flying at a somewhat high wingloading. (eg, not 1:1). She should really be concentrating on bringing the start of her flare down quite a bit, concentrating on getting the canopy to plane out with her literally one foot off the ground. She should be able to just put down her feet and slide off the landing. The big steps she's taking right at the start of her run is cause by the "fall" after the canopy stalled. Lastly, take a look at Combined.jpg, where I show the difference between where the canopy stalls, and where she touches down. Thoughts, corrections, insults, and abuse of course are always welcome. Edited to add: Pammi seems to be flaring in a "flare off / Flare on" strategy. There literally are 4 frames on the video where she goes from full flight to full flare, and this happens quite high. ZP canopies need to be flown ALL the way to the ground. The flare should be a very gradual process which finishes just before she touches down. _Am __ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #67 February 15, 2003 Here is one, you can see the topskin distorted down. There are other frames before and after this one where you can also see it. If she is in doubt or is having trouble seeing it, have an experienced canopy pilot who knows what to look for jump it. I have a picture of my 1st canopy a sabre 150 with the tail being pulled down in full flight. I thought something was wrong with the canopy and asked about my steering lines.....everyone said they were fine. They weren't fine they needed to be let out 4 inches. My landings got much better after that. (edited to add this) Her steering lines aren't the issues here, her high flaring is, once she gets that fixed, then she can start adjusting other things to allow her to get better. btw Andy....very nice pictures Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #68 February 15, 2003 Also, I don't think at any point did I see your brakes down near your crotch. You seem to be finishing your flare near your belly button. This seems odd. This may go to what SkyCat was saying, that you're brakes aren't long enough. If that is the case, then this is irrelevant. Generally, the "sweet spot" on the flare is lower, which is why I say people usually flare to the crotch. If your brakes are too short, the sweet spot will be higher. If your brakes are set correctly, you're not flaring enough. If your brakes are too short, you are hitting the sweet spot. I can't say either way. I guess my point here is that it's important that you get to full flare. Whether or not or are doing this is something we can't really tell by seeing the video. The Sabre has a perfectly strong, good flare. You should be able to not only COMPLETELY stop your vertical descent (which I'm not seeing), you should be able to get enough lift out of the canopy so that you actually go UP. Once, on a straight in approach, I flared a Sabre over a barbed wire fence I didn't see, for example. I suspect that you don't trust the flare in your canopy enough to take it lower. I suspect you're starting your flare early because you don't think it will stop quickly enough if you take it lower. It will. For a canopy to flare efficiently, it needs all the airspeed it can have. Airspeed = lift (more or less). If you approach your landing at full speed, flare rapidly and smoothly your canopy WILL generate enough lift to pop you up. This isn't necessarily a good thing, but it's a good lesson in the power of a good flare. If you start your flare too early, and flare too slowly, the canopy will have slow too much by the time you finish it, that there's no power left. I think this is whats going on. Again, criticisms, arguments, insults always appreciated. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #69 February 15, 2003 Quote Boy, it's tough when even your husband is critiquing you! Ah hell hun, you have NO idea!! LOL! You shoulda seen my student progression! Thank you guys again!! You know, I watched and watched the video as I read your comments, and even before that, I knew I'd flared to high once I saw it. I think if the winds hadn't been a little higher then they were the week before, it might've been a similar landing. For some reason, though, I FINALLY am seeing exactly what you guys are talking about! I see where the canopy planed out 3 feet or so above the ground then dropped me. I've no idea why it wasn't clear before! I am going to have to remember the 'oh shit' real evidently...when you think you should flare, say a couple of 'oh shit's' first, THEN flare More vids will come later I'm sure! :) I'm totally obsessed with figuring this landing shit out! LOL! Thank you so much Wendy for doing them for me!! (and for gettin' my back with this man I got here! ) I am also going to have someone take a look at my steering lines just to see what they think, if they could use lengthened. It'd be awesome if I could find a rigger who could jump my 135! You coming out this way anytime soon Kelli?? Pammi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
a97virago 0 #70 February 16, 2003 QuoteI'm totally obsessed with figuring this landing shit out! LOL! I completely understand that! That's my biggest goal this year! I'm tired of doing PLFs on every landing. I'm filling up my A license card with them!!! Well, good luck and keep me posted! Blue Skies Larry Larry A-43434 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #71 February 16, 2003 Pam, You know you are more than welcome And I thank you for all your help I wish you had been there Saturday with the video camera though to catch my landing, but also the looks on the faces of the people when they realized I was bookin in with no winds under a 218 reserve Surprisingly, one of my best landings yet! So next weekend the beer fridge is gonna be full...on me....you guys need to be there Life is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #72 February 20, 2003 I'm looikng for the right words here . . . maybe analysis paralysis applies -- it certainly applies to this thread! How many jumps have you made in the last 3 months? quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
