not really happy with reserve

[dragon2 2]

Had my 2nd reserve ride yesterday. My first on my own gear, which had (of course) had its repack last week.

Jumped from 5000 ft, did about 5 secs, pulled. My Safire opened with a slowish 120° turn to the left, then in a heartbeat the risers spun up, pinning my head to my chest. I was thrown just about horizontally then. Chopped it. Hello pretty little babyblue reserve.

Eh, my reserve is also turning?!

My right end cell refused to open. So I pumped. And I pumped. And I pumped again, thinking, well you (...) cell, (...) open!!!

I pumped for like 2000 ft. No good. Didn´t dare take a wrap on the lines for fear of stalling it. So I had to fly/land it while compensating, which meant my right toggle at less than handle-hight. So not much flare left. Botched the landing Prepared to plf. Tried to flare a bit, but flared unevenly, pulling me over to the left. I fell really hard, flat out, on my face, on the frozen ground Can anyone say: plf???!!....

Lucky I wore a hard helmet (a freefly helmet), and lots of thick thermal clothing.

Nothing broken .

My instructor said he´d never seen anything like this.

Got the advice to hold the toggles down for like 10 secs to inflate a cell on a reserve. I held them down for a while but never 10 secs... Next time I´ll know...

My reserve flew well tho, apart from not flying right . It isn´t big (128 sqft), but it´s a pretty good reserve. Glad to have it.

Of course I´m happy with my reserve. Hey, it saved my life.... And, 6 cells out of 7 ain´t bad...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[nicknitro71 0]

First I'm glad you made it in one piece.

I have few questions if you don't mind.

Who makes your reserve? I'm too lazy to do a search. I've never heard it here in the states.

What is your wing loading?

Why did you pull sub-terminal @ 5K? You had all the time to wait 10 sec. That might have contributed to the mal.

Also, what size PC you have?

Memento Audere Semper

903

[dterrick 0]

First, congrats on a successful PLF - you walked away under what sounds like a bad circumstance.

What brand of reserve and loading?

Who told you 10 seconds of stall for a 7 cell?!?

F 111 has no flare compared to ZP. Burying the toggles for a flare is almost expected. May I offer a guess that in your attempts to clear the closed end cell you never actually stalled the canopy? 10 seconds of stall and you'd be in a standfly again! If you never stopped flight the end cell would not have had a fair chance to inflate.

F-111 won't turn compared with your eliptical. Blinding flash of the obvious? If it flew like an SUV with bad tires, it likely was OK.

I'm freaked that your instructor "had never seen anything like that" - but it reinforces something that has been said on the lists before - even a reserve is not perfect.

Please share more of the story as you develop theories - a strange one like this is the type of Unexpected that I'd like to be able to consider in my training drills.

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[Jimbo 0]

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F 111 has no flare compared to ZP.

New F111, like you would hope to find on a reserve, flares a lot like ZP. It's only after F111 has gone through many packs and jumps that it begins to feel mushy.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[dragon2 2]

I´m also glad I made it in one piece

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Who makes your reserve??

It was made by Parachutes de France. It is a pre-Techno, so to speak.

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What is your wing loading?

On my Safire 135 (if you count it a being 135 sqft: 1,14:1
On my reserve (and on my main if you count it as being about 128 sqft): 1,21:1

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Why did you pull sub-terminal @ 5K?

Because I wanna be a CREW camera person. Working on my hoppnpops right now. Do that all the time.

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That might have contributed to the mal.

Maybe. But if I cut away from say a stuck toggle, my velocity wouln´t have been much higher. Isnt a reserve supposed to open regardless???

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Also, what size PC you have?

Which one, main or reserve? Reserve: no idea. Main: A Very big F111 one. Just got it for 2 jumps. Makes my Safire open almost twice as fast (ie not 1000 ft anymore).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[councilman24 37]

Pumping is not the most effective way of opening a closed end cell. Going to full brakes and holding it till the canopy slows down usually will open an end cell. Stalling the canopy just collapses all the cells again and doesn't get you anywhere. Unless you weigh less than 130 lbs in gear, you shouldn't expect a particularly good landing. We very rarely went above 1.0 loading for routine F-111 7 cell mains. And most people were less than 1.0. A new reserve with near new porosity will behave better than an older one. But, if you've never jumped and flared a 7 cell F-111 (of course you have now!) it'll be tough to get a good landing. You walked away, that's as good as it gets.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dragon2 2]

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What brand of reserve and loading?

Parachutes de France Transfair, 128 sqft, 1,21:1

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Who told you 10 seconds of stall for a 7 cell?!?

Thing was, I wasn´t stalling it. Didn´t dare to. Just extended my arms as far as they would go, didn´t wrap the lines.

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F-111 won't turn compared with your eliptical. Blinding flash of the obvious? If it flew like an SUV with bad tires, it likely was OK.

Well yeah, it flew fine, apart from that end cell, which I meant by ´not flying right´.
I´m used to square/tapered 7 cells, albeit zp ones, and this one wasn´t bad at all.

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I'm freaked that your instructor "had never seen anything like that" - but it reinforces something that has been said on the lists before - even a reserve is not perfect.

Well he has seen a lineover on a tandem reserve. He just had never seen a closed end cell like this. Why´s that freaky? I´d be more freaked if this happened all the time...

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Please share more of the story as you develop theories - a strange one like this is the type of Unexpected that I'd like to be able to consider in my training drills.

Well, I thought at first it must´ve been a lineover. But the possibility exist that it was a released toggle. In that case, looking up at my canopy during the first slight turning would maybe have allowed me to release the other toggle. Usually I never look up, I´m looking around for traffic. Which in this case, being a h&p, wasn´t really necessary. Also I was halfway expecting an off heading opening (I´m not practising h&p´s for nothing), so I thought," bummer, am I not symmetrical then??? Thought I was!"

Not sure if a realeased toggle would cause it to spin up like it did; my brakes are set really really short so I can´t even stow the slack because there´s hardly any. I only have about 12 cm lower brake line, I estimate. Or less.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[riggerrob 643]

Congrats on surviving your reserve ride.

I never understood the old dogma about pumping brakes to open closed end cells.
In my experience holding toggles at waist or hip level for 5 to 10 seconds is the best way to open closed end cells.
Fully stalling the canopy just complicates the problem.

As for learning how to flare a 7-cell similar to your reserve, try borrowing a Triathlon.

The difference between F-111 and Zero P should be insignificant on a properly maintained reserve.

[dragon2 2]

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In my experience holding toggles at waist or hip level for 5 to 10 seconds is the best way to open closed end cells.

Yeah this is what I will do in the future, should it happen again. I did hold the toggles down for a bit, just not long enough.

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As for learning how to flare a 7-cell similar to your reserve, try borrowing a Triathlon.

I´ve mostly jumped spectres, tri´s and lightnings (about 175 jumps on 7 cells total). And can land all of those pretty well.

I believe if I had had a fully flying reserve I could´ve landed it fairly well.

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The difference between F-111 and Zero P should be insignificant on a properly maintained reserve.

Also on one this old? (1994) I´ve never flown F111 besides mantas. Don´t really know the difference. This flew okay tho.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[skycat 0]

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My Safire opened with a slowish 120° turn to the left, then in a heartbeat the risers spun up, pinning my head to my chest. I was thrown just about horizontally then. Chopped it.

Only question....did you have riser inserts?

If not, will this incident cause you to re-think not having them and get some?

Fly it like you stole it!

[blueshrew 0]

Dragon, glad you made it down OK.

But Dterrick,
I see why a lot of people are bickering about people with low jump numbers giving advice.
I don't have many more jumps than you do, so before I write something like that, I make sure, I know what I am talking about.

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Who told you 10 seconds of stall for a 7 cell?!? May I offer a guess that in your attempts to clear the closed end cell you never actually stalled the canopy?
If you never stopped flight the end cell would not have had a fair chance to inflate.

I have really never heard of stalling a canopy to get it to inflate. That would only make it worse, I'd figure, which a couple of others here have also written.

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F 111 has no flare compared to ZP. Burying the toggles for a flare is almost expected.

I had a reserve ride on my PDR, and it flared exactly like my Sabre2. The only difference was that it had a much higher fall rate (it was also a bit smaller than my main).
So I am wondering where you got that idea, since also in that point others have agreed.

Maybe this is off-topic, but there is a lot of great material on the internet, e.g. the PD seminars, which will give you more theoretical understanding of how canopies fly, etc. So before giving out wrong information, consider at least reading into it first.
I am working on a site which has a collection of safety related articles. So if you're interested -> http://safety.skyoasis.info/, and click on articles.

[dterrick 0]

Nadine:

You are among the few of 255 views of this thread to observe that I must have been half asleep when I inferred a 10 second "stall" into dragan's post because that is not what dragon actually wrote.

That said, to have the courage (and stupidity)to hold a full stall for 10 seconds under a reserve is unheard of and uncalled for. I'm surprised more people did not address that specific point.

As for my comments on flare technique, inferred and not, I stand by my words. Dragon, per profile, flies an eliptical 9 cell and jumpes a smaller 7 cell F-111 reserve. Simply by the definition of aspect ratios, the control stroke of the reserve will be longer than that of the main. Being a square planform rather than eliptical, the initial toggle response will be slower and less pronounced. Finally, considering dragon's comment ...

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Didn´t dare take a wrap on the lines for fear of stalling it.

I still feel justified in saying I believe it's possible a full flare was never achieved. Reading this again, I'm also wondering (apart from circumstance) why dragan was in "fear" of finding the stall point. To me, not knowing the stall point of your canopy is much like not wanting to push too hard on the brake pedal of your car in case the wheels lock up!! Find the edge and then back up a bit.

***

As for your comments about "low time jumpers giving out information" I think you'd have been wise to PM me rather than suggest I am among those who are the subject of bickering. You, Nadine, to the best of my recall are the first to do so. May you also be the last.

Oh, and I think that's BEER to you for the honour.

Blue Skies

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[dragon2 2]

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Only question....did you have riser inserts?

No I don't.

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If not, will this incident cause you to re-think not having them and get some?

I am rethinking, yeah. But not all that many people I know have them. So all I know about them, I've read here.

I thought that my wingloading wasn't high enough to warrant them. Maybe not true.

Then again, I did manage to chop alright.

Oh well I'll talk to my rigger next weekend.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

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because that is not what dragon actually wrote.

That said, to have the courage (and stupidity)to hold a full stall for 10 seconds under a reserve is unheard of and uncalled for. I'm surprised more people did not address that specific point.

Eh what point? I never stalled the reserve. Couldn't, with the lines that long and not taking a wrap.
What I was told was to hold it in brakes for 10 secs, not stall it for 10 secs.

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As for my comments on flare technique, inferred and not, I stand by my words. Dragon, per profile, flies an eliptical 9 cell and jumpes a smaller 7 cell F-111 reserve. Simply by the definition of aspect ratios, the control stroke of the reserve will be longer than that of the main. Being a square planform rather than eliptical, the initial toggle response will be slower and less pronounced.

My main and reserve are actually the same size (since it's a safire 1 and not a safire 2). I've flown a lot of 7 cells. Also square ones. I know how to land them. In fact this is my first 9 cell canopy.

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Reading this again, I'm also wondering (apart from circumstance) why dragan was in "fear" of finding the stall point. To me, not knowing the stall point of your canopy is much like not wanting to push too hard on the brake pedal of your car in case the wheels lock up!! Find the edge and then back up a bit.

Well yeah. On a main, I would've. On my reserve, I assume the lines are the length they are for a reason. I don't think you are supposed to stall a reserve unless to maybe clear a lineover or something.

Am I a wuss for not wanting to stall it? It's my reserve.

I could flare it (up high). Maybe there was more flare in it. But my instructor said they explicitly don't encourage people to wrap their lines on a reserve. I didn't. And I'm positive that I could've landed it alright if I didn't have to compensate for the turn.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

Oh and my name is Saskia Enough with the Dragon/Dragan/ ....

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[riddler 0]

Good job on the reserve mal d2 - they are rare and unexpected. If I were you, I would consult the manufacturer - they might have an idea what caused it or even a better procedure for handling that issue based on their understanding of the canopy.

I have *heard* (note - not experienced) one manufacturer say that if you have a lot of altitude and no luck with flaring, rear risers, etc, that using your *front* riser may be the best way to get air into your cells. Can anyone comment on this? I'm not sure I would do it unless I really felt I had no other options.

I've only had good luck with reserves, so I'm not an expert, and don't pay much attention to what I say. Please consult the manufacturer.

[billvon 3,070]

>Good job on the reserve mal d2 - they are rare and unexpected.

Hmm, don't know if I'd call closed end cells a "mal." I've landed a few tandems with closed end cells. (the old F111 11 cell Strong 520's.)

>that using your *front* riser may be the best way to get air into your cells.

On lightly loaded tandems at least, aggressive turns seemed to be the easiest way to reinflate closed end cells on F111 mains. Turn towards the end cell you want to reinflate.

[hookitt 1]

Just a silly observation.

There are ways to inflate the end cells of a canopy. Every one agrees on that.

-however-

Am I the only one with the following opinion? This particular not so lightly loaded 7 cell parachute in question, seems as if replacing it would be a good idea.

Cheers
-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[riddler 0]

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Turn towards the end cell you want to reinflate.

To clarify - you are saying turn with front riser? Or try with toggle first, then front riser if you have time?

[billvon 3,070]

>To clarify - you are saying turn with front riser?

No, toggle. It's difficult to use front or rear riser on tandems due to the higher loadings on the system.

[hookitt 1]

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Just a silly observation.

There are ways to inflate the end cells of a canopy. Every one agrees on that.

-however-

Am I the only one with the following opinion? This particular not so lightly loaded 7 cell parachute in question, seems as if replacing it would be a good idea.

-

Hmm... I guess so
-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[USPA 0]

Though alot was unclear, because the reserve ride wasn't noticed before she was under the reserve canopy. One jumper did notice though that the cell's were inflated, only the nose was closed (for that cell).

Sadly it's guessing at this point.

Anywayz, personally I don't expect a material problem here, but then again, we're only guessing

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[PhreeZone 20]

I totally agree, I've seen a reserve that needed to be flown with one toggle 3 inches down to fly level. First thing I asked the jumper was when was he replacing it. If there is not a clear mal on the reserve and it flies weird (reports of tempos turning) its time to replace it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[blueshrew 0]

Dterrick,

have you been on a a similiarly sized 7 cell low-p, and 9 cell zero-p? my guess is no.
it is very much possible to make a reserve that has a nearly identical flare to a zero-p canopy (see your original statement also). that is not to say that all reserves are built to be like that.
flaring performance has a little (not to say a LOT) more variables than aspect ratio.
as for the bickering, i made you a suggestion, maybe a little bickery, but not to the intent of "if you have low jump numbers, shut the hell up", but, "at least get informed first".