Riser turns...Newbie question

[skydivejersey 0]

Hi,
I have just been reading the forum about a stuck break toggle and using risers to steer out of it. I also have recently bought my first canopy (still unjumped!) which came with front riser loops. My question is this... what are the different sets of risers used for when steering. When would it be appropriate to use the front and when the rear??? And how exactly do you steer rear risers, whats the grap point?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You'll want to steer with your risers under a variety of situations. First off, upon opening you should be reaching for your rear risers immediately in order to be in a postion to steer your canopy away from another canopy which may be on a collision course. Second, the rear risers can be used to flare the canopy if you ever break a steering line and you don't want to cut away a perfectly good canopy. Keep in mind though that when flaring with your rear risers, you'll have less control range and the canopy will stall at a higher air speed. Thirdly the rear risers can be used to get back from a long spot (keeping track of your progress is important as there are times that just going full flight or using your fronts risers are more advantageous). There are a number of techniques which can be used to steer the rear risers. You can just pull down on them. Some people like to spread them apart and if you can reach above your risers, you can place your fingers between the risers and the line links (this techniques helps save a little arm strength on those long spots).

As far as the front risers are concerned, they can be used whenever you want to have a whopping good time. The dive loops on the front risers can be pulled down and the canopy will enter a steep diving turn building up ever increasing forward and vertical speed. Always keep your toggles in your hands while using your front risers and be warned that you will lose a lot of altitude very quickly so don't do this down low until you know your canopy. Double front risers can also be used to penetrate into a strong head wind as well as get you down faster.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DYEVOUT 0]

I'm still learning, and unlicensed, but I've flown my (and landed) my first student rig on rear risers. We had a portion of the AFF course dedicated to becoming familiar with the canopy, and flying on rear risers was part of it. I just grabbed the risers and gave them a twist - right for right turn, left for left turn, both for flare - just like the toggles. The (rear) risers deform the rear of the canopy, as the steering lines do - but require more effort to do so, and don't seem as precise.

The Manta 288 I started on seemed to steer just as good with the rears as the toggles - I haven't messed with the risers on the Sabre 230 yet (only jumped it once). Riser control seems like a good thing to know, as it can save your ass (or a reserve repack) in case of a busted steering line/dropped toggle etc...

The more experienced guys/gals will have to help you with the front risers - as I've only played with them a couple times. Just play high, 'cause front riser turns really burn altitude.

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[listo 0]

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. Keep in mind though that when flaring with your rear risers, you'll have less control range and the canopy will stall at a high air speed.

You couldn't be more wrong on that one! The rear risers are a lot more sensitive to control inputs than toggles. Two inches on a rear riser does a hell of a lot more than two inches on a toggle. A toggle deflects the trailing edge of the canopy, a rear riser deflects the whole rear of the canopy which results in a lot more action.

Now, as far as flaring goes. Toggles are the best way to flare a canopy. However, rear risers can be used in an emergency such as a brake line breaking when you are too low to cut away. If a brake line breaks on deployment or any altitude above 1,500 feet, you need to cut away. It sounds like this person is a new jumper and needs to learn the basics before he is taught more advanced techniques.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

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Riser control seems like a good thing to know, as it can save your ass (or a reserve repack) in case of a busted steering line/dropped toggle etc...

You should NEVER use the term "save a reserve repack" as a good excuse for not following proper safety procedures. NEVER! If a canopy is not Square, Stable and Stearable, then you need to cut away immediately if altitude allows for it.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

Rear riser landings are a high performance manuever and if not done correctly can lead to broken bones or serious sprains. No instructor in his right mind, in my opinion, is going to tell a student to execute a rear riser landing just for the sake of doing it. I consider a student anyone with less than an "A" license.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[skydivejersey 0]

Thanks for that. Trying to get a few pointers on how to get the most of the new rig and try a few new things. One other q though...

"rear risers can be used to get back from a long spot "

How???

[PhreeZone 20]

Rear risers can be used to flaten out the trim angle of your canopy.

Rear riser landings should be practiced by everyone. Having a break line brake at 300 feet leaves you no options and if you've never practiced landing before on the risers its very easy to get into a situation that you are not prepared for. I've landed 2 canopies on rears, one was a Student canopy last summer and the other was my Cobalt. Big difference in the landings generated between toggles and risers.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,991]

>"rear risers can be used to get back from a long spot "

If you are upwind, then by staying in the air longer, the wind will help push you back towards the DZ. Pulling on or spreading your rear risers can help that happen. Some people just go to 1/4 to 1/2 brakes to do the same thing; it depends on the canopy. This will also flatten your glide a bit, so it's somewhat useful in still air too. It is _not_ useful when you're downwind, since you want all the speed you can get in that situation.

[billvon 2,991]

>If a canopy is not Square, Stable and Stearable, then you need to
>cut away immediately if altitude allows for it.

Well, right. And if altitude doesn't allow, then using your rear risers to land the canopy is a better option than cutting away or landing without a flare. This must be practiced first if it is going to be useful in an emergency, and I encourage people to try it before they begin downsizing but after they have mastered normal flight on their canopy.

[DYEVOUT 0]

"You should NEVER use the term "save a reserve repack" as a good excuse for not following proper safety procedures. NEVER! If a canopy is not Square, Stable and Stearable, then you need to cut away immediately if altitude allows for it."
---------------------------------------------------
Excuse my poor wording.

The point I was trying to make is - without knowledge of riser functions, one might cut away a perfectly flyable canopy. If I'd popped a toggle at 5k, that big Manta would've still landed. Again, I defer to more experienced flyers, as I'm a rookie.

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Keep in mind though that when flaring with your rear risers, you'll have less control range and the canopy will stall at a high air speed.

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You couldn't be more wrong on that one! The rear risers are a lot more sensitive to control inputs than toggles. Two inches on a rear riser does a hell of a lot more than two inches on a toggle. A toggle deflects the trailing edge of the canopy, a rear riser deflects the whole rear of the canopy which results in a lot more action.

Um, I think you should re-read what he wrote. The control range with rear risers is less that with toggles, and the canopy will stall at a higher airspeed, for the same reasons an airplane will stall at a higher airspeed than with the flaps down.

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Now, as far as flaring goes. Toggles are the best way to flare a canopy. However, rear risers can be used in an emergency such as a brake line breaking when you are too low to cut away. If a brake line breaks on deployment or any altitude above 1,500 feet, you need to cut away. It sounds like this person is a new jumper and needs to learn the basics before he is taught more advanced techniques.

Depending on the canopy and wing loading, landing a canopy on rear risers is not a big deal, especially if practiced before hand.

I teach students to practice flying and flaring with the rear risers in case a steering line does break. I tell them to find out with a good canopy if they feel comfortable landing it on rear risers, so that if a steering line does break, they have already made their decision on whether or not they will land it or cutaway. I had a student land a canopy on rear risers, no problem. He had practiced rear riser turns and flares on the jump prior and on the second jump of the day, a steering line broke.

Hook

Hook

[Ron 10]

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In Reply To


. Keep in mind though that when flaring with your rear risers, you'll have less control
range and the canopy will stall at a high air speed.



You couldn't be more wrong on that one!

He is right...read it again. The control RANGE is less, not less control...And it will stall sooner, with less warning...and violent as hell.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Samurai136 0]

as a student you have a lot of time under a good canopy. Look at it. front risers pull the front of the canopy down and cause a quicker descent in altitude. Rear risers give a quick flare response. don't use risers as landing techniques, for now.

Learn to fly your canopy up high and you will know how to fly it for landing...

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[listo 0]

i did misread what he had wrote first of all and the fact that a rear riser landing will stall at a higher speed. I apologize, I was half asleep the other night when I posted that one, sorry

However, I think that it needs to be stressed that practicing rear riser landings doesn't need to involve the ground. Students can practice rear riser landings up high very easily. I also encourage the constant use and practice of flying a canopy with all four risers on every jump, but to lower jump numbered students I encourage them to fly "normal" below 1,000 feet unless an emergency is present.

Sure, a student loaded at 1:1 is more than likely going to be just fine doing a rear riser landing, but I feel like this should only be done in an emergency. If you have toggles for landing, why not use them? Isn't that why they are there.

I say practice up high and land like normal, but be prepared to use alternate means if needed.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Hooknswoop 19]

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However, I think that it needs to be stressed that practicing rear riser landings doesn't need to involve the ground. Students can practice rear riser landings up high very easily. I also encourage the constant use and practice of flying a canopy with all four risers on every jump, but to lower jump numbered students I encourage them to fly "normal" below 1,000 feet unless an emergency is present.

Sure, a student loaded at 1:1 is more than likely going to be just fine doing a rear riser landing, but I feel like this should only be done in an emergency. If you have toggles for landing, why not use them? Isn't that why they are there.

I say practice up high and land like normal, but be prepared to use alternate means if needed.

I agree, I don't teach students to land w/ rear risers if their steering lines are fine. I think we are on the same page

Hook

[billvon 2,991]

>Sure, a student loaded at 1:1 is more than likely going to be just
> fine doing a rear riser landing, but I feel like this should only be
> done in an emergency.

Agreed, but at some point before they start downsizing (and this doesn't have to be in their first 20 jumps) they should try an actual landing on rear risers. If you're going to try it, it's a lot better to try it under a 1:1 canopy in a 10kt wind than during an emergency in no wind under a 2:1 canopy.

[Ron 10]

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Agreed, but at some point before they start downsizing (and this doesn't have to be in
their first 20 jumps) they should try an actual landing on rear risers. If you're going to
try it, it's a lot better to try it under a 1:1 canopy in a 10kt wind than during an
emergency in no wind under a 2:1 canopy.

I agree with what you are saying, but not in practice. It is kinda like saying "Cutaway a few times before you have a mal. That way you will be better able to handle it when your main does mal." I think that for most people a rear riser landing is an emergency. I don't think most people will ever want to try it low, there is a high risk of getting hurt for no reason. Yes you should use the hell out of them high, but once you get to say 700 or so feet get into a landing configuration.

My thoughts,
Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,991]

Yeah, AggieDave and I have the same disagreement over rear riser landings.

>I agree with what you are saying, but not in practice. It is kinda like
> saying "Cutaway a few times before you have a mal. That way you
> will be better able to handle it when your main does mal."

They do say that for tandem masters. In addition, I do recommend a cutaway (either real or planned with a tertiary rig) before deciding to permanently disconnect your RSL. There are a lot of advanced skills that could save your life - basic CRW is one, to handle a cypres misfire. I recommend trying to get those skills after you can handle them safely but before you need them for real.

>I think that for most people a rear riser landing is an emergency. I
> don't think most people will ever want to try it low, there is a high
> risk of getting hurt for no reason.

That risk is very, very low under good conditions (.8 to 1 canopy, 10 kts wind.) It is much higher under a more heavily loaded canopy, so the time to practice is under the larger canopy, not after you go to a smaller one.

[Ron 10]

Quote

>I agree with what you are saying, but not in practice. It is kinda like
> saying "Cutaway a few times before you have a mal. That way you
> will be better able to handle it when your main does mal."

They do say that for tandem masters. In addition, I do recommend a cutaway (either
real or planned with a tertiary rig) before deciding to permanently disconnect your RSL.
There are a lot of advanced skills that could save your life - basic CRW is one, to
handle a cypres misfire. I recommend trying to get those skills after you can handle
them safely but before you need them for real.

I agree 100% with all of this.
I think for a "D" you should do a cutaway.
Before you get rid of an RSL you should do a cutaway and land with both handles pulled.

CRW is good for more than just 2 out....How about collisions?

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That risk is very, very low under good conditions (.8 to 1 canopy, 10 kts wind.) It is
much higher under a more heavily loaded canopy, so the time to practice is under the
larger canopy, not after you go to a smaller one.

Agreed, but it is still a risk.....I have never HAD to land rear risers (2,600 jumps). but I have used them a lot for CRW Demos...ect... But I would not recomend doing using them for landing unless you had to....Just a differance of opinion here...But I don't do "Horny Gorillas" anymore after seeing some nasty shit on one. Some still do them, but it is not worth the unneeded risk for me.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[relyon 0]

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Before you get rid of an RSL you should do a cutaway and land with both handles pulled.

Ironically, if I'd had an RSL on my first cutaway (25-way diamond that funnelled), I'd be dead. I did land with both handles.

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CRW is good for more than just 2 out....How about collisions?

I think the canopy control and situational awareness that comes with CRW is good for avoiding collisions. All joking aside, CRW docks (even the hardest ones) are not collisions and shouldn't be thought of as such.

Quote

Agreed, but it is still a risk.....I have never HAD to land rear risers (2,600 jumps). but I have used them a lot for CRW Demos...ect... But I would not recomend doing using them for landing unless you had to...

I'm very much in agreement with Bill re: rear riser landings. Heavy and fast with no wind, no altitude, and no options is not the time to learn. As you say, just a difference of opinion.

Bob

[sarge 0]

Q: > ... what are the different sets of risers used for when steering. When would it be appropriate to use the front and when the rear??? And how exactly do you steer rear risers, whats the grap point?


1.) CanuckInUSA> The dive loops on the front risers can be pulled down and the canopy will enter a steep diving turn building up ever increasing forward and vertical speed.

2.) Hooknswoop> Depending on the canopy and wing loading, landing a canopy on rear risers is not a big deal, especially if practiced before hand.

3.) BillV> That risk is very, very low under good conditions (.8 to 1 canopy, 10 kts wind.) It is much higher under a more heavily loaded canopy, so the time to practice is under the larger canopy, not after you go to a smaller one.

4.) Listo> If you have toggles for landing, why not use them? Isn't that why they are there.

Q:> "...how exactly do you steer rear risers."

1.) Listo> Students can practice rear riser landings up high very easily.

[...to add all dimesions including stall familiarization and toggle transition]

...Try to re-create. You may find how all mechanisms can work in unison, ie: leg-straps/harness, risers, toggles. Use/experiment with the general tips about what other people experienced in a particular configuration under their canopy...you'd be amazed how they will differ! (of course at altitude); knowledge is no substitute for experience. There is no substitute for direct observation.

I strongly urge you to avoid all techniques in a riser configuration in actual landing practices until you can condense opinions of other skilled canopy pilots that meet your personal skill accomplishments/awareness!

... (Not to be repetitive but to surmize)

.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[Designer 0]

Think about rear risers as providing "some" lift as you turn.The opposite for front risers.(DIVE,turn).This technique is usually used in an emergency.OPPS,too close to someone else after pulling.Making the right judgment in an emergency is much more important than where to pull on the riser.A good snatch and grab on the best riser for what your eyes are telling your brain has seemed to work pretty well for me.By all means ask others(instructors,etc.)