My friend may kill himself

[Ruffles 0]

I have a good pal that I dive with, has about 150 jumps and is a good pilot. However, he only has 150 jumps and his 2nd chute, after a sabre 150, is going to be a stilleto 120. his exit weight is about 160. I think thats about a 1.35 load under a high performance elliptical after 150 jumps on a square. Am I simply a canopy nazi or does this strike any one as inherently dangerous? My problem is this. #1- I have like 45 jumps and who the hell am I to be telling him what he should or shouldn't do. #2 - He is kinda the cool guy at the dropzone and no one else seems to be talking to him about this (ie the AFFIs, other jumpers, etc.). #3 - He seems to have this "not a problem" approach to things which is fairly well recieved, but may be blinding him to skydiving hazards. Any suggestions on how to approach this thing, or if I should be worried at all?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

If I jumped a Stilleto 120 with my exit weight (somewhere in the area of 230lbs) I'd likely be in trouble. But I jump a semi-elliptical loaded at 1.25 in the high altitude here in Colorado with a similar number of jumps as your friend and have no trouble whatsoever handling my landings (man I like my front risers). So as long as your friend doesn't hook their turns too low to the ground, I'm sure they'll be fine with a 1.35 loaded canopy. Of course I'm sure some canopy nazi is bound to come along and preach.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Unutsch 0]

it's cool you are worried about him, but as you said, he's a good pilot, and if that's so, if he does not make stupid stuff with his chute, he should be fine...

just talk to him that you're worried he might hurt himself with the Stiletto 120, sometimes that's enough to prevent people from burning in...

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

Any suggestions on how to approach this thing, or if I should be worried at all?

Your friend will be flying fast under that canopy, so he needs to be extra careful when landing in crowded areas. BTW, a low turn while loaded at 1.35:1 would probably be fatal. Be careful out there!

[matttrudeau 0]

It depends on a number of things. If you friend is radical under canopy it could be a problem. If he's fairly conservative then it should be ok. Personally I would have downsized to a Sabre2 135.

[PhreeZone 20]

Ummm... downsizing to even a Manta 288 can easly kill under unskilled hands. Canopy skills are hard to learn and they usually have a price associated with them, metal is usually the intro price. I'm still yet to learn everything on the student canopies at the DZ, downsizing should be looked at very carefully and you should have good reasons and skills before downsizing.

And half the deaths last year were from unintentional low turns, so there is more to it then how they fly. Their mind set while flying is just as important as their flight pattern.

And does anyone else see it as ironic that someone with less then 50 jumps is giving downsizing advice?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

I was jumping a moderately loaded (1.3-1.4-ish) Stiletto at those jump numbers. It can be done, if he has the proper canopy coaching, is a good canopy pilot and is fairly conservative when under canopy. He needs to be careful, though. VERY careful.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

While nobody here is going to recomend that wingloading, under that canopy, at that experience level... it's not off the charts. It's not rediculous.

Encourage your friend to get some profesional coaching under the new canopy.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

Of course I'm sure some canopy nazi is bound to come along and preach.

Sure enough, some canopy nazi is here to preach. Until a jumper has seen a friend femur in (or worse) when they found themselves in a bad situation under a canopy that was just a bit too fast or aggressive for their abilities, I really don't think said jumper should be dissing those of us who "preach" slow, safe downsizing...

I think I'll let someone else's words speak for me this time...

"If you stay in this sport, you will land off the drop zone. If you can't or are unwilling to land your canopy downwind or in someone's backyard, then it's too small and fast for you."

Sound like a canopy nazi? That quote was taken directly from an article in last September's Parachutist magazine. Who said it? Jim Slaton.

Definitely food for thought for anyone considering a move to a smaller and/or more aggressive canopy, regardless of their experience level.

[Ruffles 0]

Thanks gang. I thought it was a bigger deal than it really is I guess; kinda explains why nobody at my DZ seemed too concerned. I guess the name "Stilleto" just sounds like a narly, aggressive canopy and that kinda got my attention. Like my AFFI said , "its not output, itsa input".
One other quick and semi-related question.... I just looked at the PD specs for my Silhouette 210 and it places me in the advanced category at a 1.15 loading? Did I just buy the wrong canopy? It seems to fly nice to me (25 landings and all standing).

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Of course I'm sure some canopy nazi is bound to come along and preach.

Canopy nazi. Hmm sounds like the term someone would use when they "know it all". I have a statement for that type of person on our DZ. When I have tried to educate them from my experience, and that of others who have learned the hard way. After I've pointed out the incident reports, and the fact that there is plenty of time to grow in this sport. When all the gory bonfire stories of ambulance rides, and seeing friends die have not worked, I've said this:

"Nice canopy." : "Oh, when I step over your body, I want to know what color handle to pull to claim MY new canopy"

Never stop learning, never stop asking, never believe you're the best, and never believe you are invincible.

Flame on.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Check that exit weight again, it sounds like it might be a little light for a male. Tell your friend to seek advice, and not to stop seeking advice untill he's heard arguments from BOTH sides. Tell him to get the advice of a profesional canopy coach. Tell him that having twice the experience on his current canopy will not kill him.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BoobieCootie 0]

You're definitely a friend because you are concerned. The thing is though, he's a pilot. I therefore could see why he might have the "not a problem" mentality because he's obviously been trained on more rigorous things.

I'm under the impression that your friend receives information and suggestions quite well. So why don't you express your feelings to him and ask him to do you a favor by first demo-ing a Stilletto 150 before trading down to a 120. Seems reasonable don't you think?

[rhino 0]

Some people can do it and get lucky..

I was flying a Diablo110 at 150 jumps loading was 1.7+...

I hope he is good..

Rhino

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

You're definitely a friend because you are concerned. The thing is though, he's a pilot. I therefore could see why he might have the "not a problem" mentality because he's obviously been trained on more rigorous things.

I would like to add that maybe I'm a little bias here as well. I too am a licensed private pilot (I was a pilot before I was a skydiver) and therefore would like to believe that I am somewhat used to the sensation of approaching the earth at a given glide path and speed, leveling out, bleeding off the excess airspeed and touching down. A funny thing though is that I have recently noticed that since I've been jumping more than I have been flying, my aircraft landings aren't as good as they used to be because I'm more acclaimated the muscle memory and visual clues of landing a canopy rather than landing an airplane.

Now to get back on the topic, if the buddy in question hasn't flown a Stilleto before, he should demo slightly larger versions before he starts using the 120. Ultimately I would like to fly an eliptical canopy somewhere in the 150 (maybe even 135) range. But before I do that, I need to master my Sabre2 190, then progress down to some sort of 170 eliptical before settling in on a 150.

Finally in early February, I'll be attending Hooknswoop's canopy control class and I hope to be a better canopy pilot than what I am today (even though Pablito gave me some awesome landing advice while we were in Eloy).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rigging65 0]

You can only say so much to anyone who is determined to change canopy sizes too early. Will you're friend be ok? Maybe, maybe not. You can get killed on ANY size canopy. Do you guys have a canopy program on your DZ? Any skilled canopy pilots that might talk with your friend?

To be the Devil's advocate here, people learn at different rates. Maybe your friend can handle it. Hell, Chicago moves folks right along on canopies and they don't break too many of them.

Maybe you can find a good High Performance Canopy Flight manual out there (there are several) and give him a copy along with noting your concerns to him. At least that way he'd have more information...face to face learning is best (that's why picking up broken people teaches you so well) but written material is better than nothing!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[amir1967 0]

Quote

Some people can do it and get lucky..

I was flying a Diablo110 at 150 jumps loading was 1.7+...

I hope he is good..

Rhino

I was flying my Vengeance 170 at 1.4 with 60 jumps
I hope I wasn´t stupid
am

AM67

[pds 0]

this is what demos and rentals are for. if simply switching to a similarly sized HP canopy is not sufficent for him, at least spend a good 20-30 hop-n-pop weekend on at least 2 canopies in between. i did 30-40 jumps each on 4 gradually smaller canopies, ending up on a 135 and found that 150 was actually the edge of my envelope. (1.3)
while i was waiting for my 150, i did go back to flying an old 135 i got lying around and confirmed that, indeed, 150 is where i need to be.

namaste, motherfucker.

[bbarnhouse 0]

Lisa...
I admire you for always speaking your mind...and I happen to agree with you. When people who have more experience give thier input, it should be listened to.Why is it that people are in such a hurry to downsize? Lots of time to jump. Then again....I'm just a girl!
Bwahhhh

[sarge 0]

Well ok, in my opinion you got tons of super input.

I'm thinking that your concern for his well-being is in proper perspective; but, is his concern for his own well- being in proper perspective, sounds like the underlying question?

If I listened to my many loved ones, I probably wouldn't have gone on my second skydive. Am I selfish, stupid? Maybe both according to more than one of them? If I took the 'good-intentioned' advice from some of my esteemed fellow jumpers, I probably would still be 'riding' a 1.2 instead of 'flying' a 1.6+ Hi elip.

Point is, I'm grateful they care. Everybody that comes from a place of sincerely caring, gets through to me. I may still do what I want to do anyway, but I do so with a sense to be mindful of those preachings. We all know people who go off and do the stupidest shit anyway regardless of what others say... Oh well? I really have no inclination to elaborate about that...

Good luck to you (letting go), good luck to him (holding on). Also just know (in my opinion) like has already been said in effect. His choice is not really that radical, as it is within reasonable comprehension(not to put words in anybody's mouth) However, I would be a Nazi if your guy said, "I've got this new Xaos 27 88 or Vx 89!!!!!" I'd say give me the tx to your s&ta!!! as well, I'd say that I'd buy his life insurance policy except they would refuse to pay out on a suicide...
.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[billvon 2,989]

>Am I simply a canopy nazi or does this strike any one as inherently dangerous?

It depends. Can he:

-flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet?
-flare turn 45 degrees?
-land crosswind and in no wind?
-land with rear risers?
-land on slight uphills and downhills?
-reliably land in a 10 meter circle?
-initiate a front riser approach to landing?

If he can do all that, then he's probably good enough. If he can't, he needs to work on his skills. If he tells you that those things are too dangerous, encourage him to go up a canopy size and work on them until he can perform them safely on his smaller canopy.

Every year, more people get killed by not having enough canopy skill than by having too much and doing something dangerous. A low turn to avoid a collision at 50 feet is no problem if you've practiced it; but if you're loading a canopy at 1.4 to 1 and you try it for the first time when someone cuts you off, you're probably going to die.

[bbarnhouse 0]

Quote

If he can do all that, then he's probably good enough. If he can't, he needs to work on his skills. If he tells you that those things are too dangerous, encourage him to go up a canopy size and work on them until he can perform them safely on his smaller canopy.

Every year, more people get killed by not having enough canopy skill than by having too much and doing something dangerous. A low turn to avoid a collision at 50 feet is no problem if you've practiced it; but if you're loading a canopy at 1.4 to 1 and you try it for the first time when someone cuts you off, you're probably going to die.

BillV....you're my hero!

[drenaline 0]

My comments are kinda hard but I have found that it is the best solution for somebody that just wont listen.

If you think and have friends that think that he will not make it alive when he jumps the stilleto 120 there are 3 things to do:

1- tell him and talk to him about the dangers of the wingload he's choosing, that he might die and why you think that. Also you can bring him to the forum or print the page for him to read and know what he will be getting into.

if he doesn't listens because he is to COOL to hear you talk and because he's superman and nothing will/can hurt him, you go to step 2.

2- talk to the club president, dz owner, his instructors or somebody else who is important to him, and make that person talk to him and try to make him have some concious.

If it still doesn't work and you know that he will get to board the plane with the small stuff, you go to step 3.

3- Buy a camera and never leave home without it, and don't go in the plane when he's jumping, be on land with the camera and a video cam if you have one. Have somebody film him and somebody take pictures (have a new film and a new tape installed). You will have the perfect visual aid for the next superman coolman that will try a to small canopy for his/her skills and trust me with that new visual aid you will succeed on making others to think things twice.

The idea of the camera is because sometimes forensics don't give the pictures to civilians.

From personal experience I have a friend where we had to implement step 2 and good thing it worked.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[skymedic 0]

Quote

Hell, Chicago moves folks right along on canopies and they don't break too many of them.

One thing about SDC is that if you land out there...there isn't too much to hit...unless your over the river...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....