Knowing your position

[freebird 0]

Ok there are many times I am invited to jump with nice people that have many more jumps than I. Sometimes I can't make it and end up going to the DZ when many or all of the RW people are doing training or big ways.Bad timeing on my part

I like RW. and relaxation and just enjoy the visuals.

Anyway my concern is if there are students tandems freeflyers, and Rw teams on the plane where is the safest line up position for a belly solo jumper with an exit weight of about 125-130? Pulling @ 4000.

How much time does a freeflyer need compared to an RW team?If Im at the door? I know they need to be at a 45 degree angle. Right? I have 73 jumps and I have been doing only RW two and three ways mostly. With experienced jumpers. I need to do some solo jumps though if my friends are commited.

[billvon 3,118]

>Anyway my concern is if there are students tandems freeflyers, and
> Rw teams on the plane where is the safest line up position for a
> belly solo jumper with an exit weight of about 125-130? Pulling @
> 4000.

A standard exit lineup would be:

large RW
small RW
solo belly
freeflyers
high pullers
tandems
AFF

>How much time does a freeflyer need compared to an RW team?

If they are exiting _after_ the RW team, they don't need to leave any extra time, as long as jump run is into the wind. If the RW team is leaving after the freefly team, they need to leave a lot more time, say 20-25 seconds.

>If Im at the door? I know they need to be at a 45 degree angle.

Absolutely not. That doesn't work. Time is the critical factor; you need to leave enough time between groups to give yourself enough separation. If everyone was doing solos out of an Otter at 13,000 feet, and the winds were 30kts, then 5 seconds would give you 500 feet of separation. For RW groups, 1000 feet is probably a better idea, so that's 10 seconds of separation. I don't recommend getting out after freeflyers unless there's going to be a lot of vertical separation i.e. you're going to pull above 4000 and they will take it to 2.

[Luminous 0]

Your venturing into a much hashed out issue of exit order. There have been several threads, and several different opinions, regarding this.

As a solo RW in Houston, you will be leaving after the bigger RW groups and prior to the freefliers. Both DZs have same exit order of RW-FreeFlyers-Tandem.

While 4k is not real high opening, it would be nice if you informed the people behind you of your opening altitude plans.

As for the "why" part of it, I think professer Kallend covers it very well HERE

See ya.

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[rigging65 0]

There's a method for teaching spotting using what's called a wind cone. It basically shows you how far up or down wind you can exit and still make it back to your target based on freefall drift and canopy forward speed as related to current wind conditions.

Once you add more jumpers to the scenario, it can get more complicated, but the basic rules apply. More wind allows for more time between groups and a longer spot...

Your DZ probably has a published exit order they want used. Ask the Lead Instructor what it is and why they choose to do it that way!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[freebird 0]

people behind you of your opening altitude plans. ***
Always and know theres as well.

[mattb 0]

[reply}

A standard exit lineup would be:

large RW
small RW
solo belly
freeflyers
high pullers
tandems
AFF

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I would think that 2500-3500 is normal and from what I've seen 4000 is high. That's why it's nice to try and encourage the person to pull at 3500 so as not to disrupt the RW/Freefly order. But I'm sure a more experienced person might view things differently.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freebird 0]

would tend to think that 4000 feet qualifies as a high puller - thoughts? ***
I am willing to pull at 3500. I do not and will not pull any lower then that until I feel ok with that. I will line up where I need to be inform jumpers on the oplane where my pull time is and we can come to a decsion of when I need to exit.

If high pullers or before AFF and tandems then I will be going before the high pullers and we need to talk and decide where we want to pull. I will pull no lower then 3500 for now.

[freebird 0]

snivelly canopies aren't willing to go to 2000 feet. ***
I have a Sabre 2. Yes I have one of those snivel canopies and 2000 is too low, for now for me.

[billvon 3,118]

>This brings up the question - what's a high puller?

To me, it's someone pulling at least 2000 feet above the previous group. If the RW folks are going to pull at or below 2500, then 4500+ is high puller. That way a pull at 3000 by an RW person plus a snivel down to 3500 by the high puller still gives you some separation. Note that a cutaway totally hoses this up so you can't rely on it as your only separation.

[freebird 0]

large RW -2000
small RW 3000
solo belly 3500
freeflyers 4000
high pullers4500-5000
tandems 6000
AFF 5000-4000

Is this a correct pull order or not?

[mattb 0]

Although RW jumpers often pull lower than freefliers that is not an absolute. Exit order is based on time aloft so that groups don't drift over on another.

Quote

large RW -2000
small RW 3000
solo belly 3500
freeflyers 4000
high pullers4500-5000
tandems 6000
AFF 5000-4000

Is this a correct pull order or not?

[PhreeZone 20]

Large RW
Small RW
Solo flat
Freeflyers
Highpullers are above 5000
Students
Tandems with video
Tandems with out

The vertical pull is really useless with different groups.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

large RW -2000
small RW 3000
solo belly 3500
freeflyers 4000
high pullers4500-5000
tandems 6000
AFF 5000-4000

Is this a correct pull order or not?

You're likely confusing the break off altitude differences between the RW groups and the freefliers. Freefliers need to slow down before we pull and thus break off and track much higher than RW groups.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

large RW -2000
small RW 3000
solo belly 3500
freeflyers 4000
high pullers4500-5000
tandems 6000
AFF 5000-4000

No. RW guys rarely pull bellow 2500, and nobody ever encourages anyone to pull bellow 2000 - unless it's a VERY big RW (100+).

Freeflyers rarely pull above 3000. They certainly don't tend to pull at 4000. Freeflyers generally pull at about the same altitude as RW jumpers.

That said, people with very high performance canopies sometimes like to pull a bit higher so that the air is clear for their swoop.

RW and freeflyers generally pull at about the same altitude. freeflyers might pull a bit higher because I think there's a higher concentration of high performance canopy fliers.

Verticle separation is not a significant part of the exit order, apart from students and very high pullers going out last.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[freebird 0]

Large RW
Small RW
Solo flat
Freeflyers
Highpullers are above 5000
Students
Tandems with video
Tandems with out ***

Yes this is how my home DZ does it with tandems going last.
I just wanted to see if its the norm for a solo belly flyer to jumper before freeflyers

[skr 1]

Those are good questions and you are smart to be asking.

The way I explain it to our students is here
http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/cc_separation_summary.html

To get some first hand experience do some solos.

When the group in front of you goes, move to the door,
keep your eye on the group in front of you, use one of
the techniques people have mentioned in this thread
for getting separation and then jump out.

In freefall keep your eye on the group in front of you
and notice stuff, freefall drift, landmarks, how hangars
and runways and cars and trees and stuff look at various
altitudes.

How does your position change relative to the group
in front of you? If you're too close on top of them, you
can break a couple thousand feet early, and track
perpendicular to the jump run to make some room.

If your distance is OK, then watch them break and open.
That's pretty interesting in itself, and you also get quite
a rush of speed, it's almost as good as a cloud.

Now the important part is to start relating what you did
in the door before exit to how much actual separation
you got on the bottom end.

This takes a number of jumps in various combinations
of upper and lower winds.

It's not a particularly easy skill to develop, but it's worth
the effort.

----

Opening higher than the generic altitude matters if the
people behind you on exit don't give proper separation,
or if the spot is off and there are hazards, or if another
plane full of jumpers is coming overhead in a couple
minutes.

I pull higher now than I used to.

The people who taught me pulled at 1,000 ft plus or minus.
I was taught to pull at 2,000 ft. I pull closer to 3,000 now
because I'm older and slower and today's chutes take
forever to open.

Sometimes I'll pull a little lower down at sea level drop
zones like Eloy where the air is so thick you almost
don't need a rig :-) :-)

Skr

[billvon 3,118]

>Is this a correct pull order or not?

Well, they're close, but no one follows such a plan just because it's a plan. Some freeflyers pull at 2000; some RW types pull at 3000. Tandems and AFF are nearly always 4000-6000 feet.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

A standard exit lineup would be:

large RW
small RW
solo belly
freeflyers
high pullers
tandems
AFF

Why tandem before AFF? My general feeling is that with a drogue out the tandem pair is a sitting duck, and nobody other than tandems should be following them. Likewise, if the spot is long it's easier for tandems to get out late, and perhaps even on a 180, but that's tougher for an AFF student to handle. My preference is for tandems to be last-last. Thoughts?

-tom buchanan

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 3,118]

> My preference is for tandems to be last-last. Thoughts?

Yep, my mistake - we put tandems after AFF as well. I was thinking of some instances where we knew AFF would be a separate pass anyway so the tandems got out first, but that's unusual.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Replying to:
Re: [mattb] Knowing your position by CanuckInUSA
Post:
I would think that 2500-3500 is normal and from what I've seen 4000 is high. That's
why it's nice to try and encourage the person to pull at 3500 so as not to disrupt the
RW/Freefly order.

Don't try to "encourage" people to do something they don't want to do....Just because you feel safe does not make it safe for everyone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Luminous 0]

Quote

RW guys rarely pull bellow 2500

Maybe you should insert "at my DZ" somewhere in there.

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock