First time jumper with a .948 Wingloading?

[Casch 0]

Do you think this is too high for a first time jumper, on a solo jump? Or is anything under 1.0 perfectly safe for students?

[AggieDave 6]

*anything* under 1.0? Nope. Everything depends on the amount of training and the type of training too. For instance, if a student does some tandems that are actually sort of like AFF levels, AND the TM begins teaching them about canopy flight, they'll do better on their own, then through the traditional FJC.

With that said, though, at this point in skydiving, I think it would be asinine to put a student out under anything over 1.0:1. Depending on the student, we've put some out at something closer to .5:1. I've only been in the sport for just under 3 years, but I've seen students do some pretty damned stupid things under canopy before.

An example I'm thinking of is a lady who we put out under a Navigator 300 (she wasn't a small gal, but still only loaded it at about .5:1). Even though she had done 3 tandems and understood about flairing, went through a transition course (like a FJC) and did very well in the class, she didn't flair her canopy. Even though the JM was saying flair in her radio (we even heard it through her radio where we were standing so it DID work). What was her reasoning? She was watching the altimeter instead of the ground, and we all know how accurate an altimeter gets when its under 50 feet...

She actually quit jumping shortly after that (thank god!)

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[RichM 0]

Quote

Do you think this is too high for a first time jumper, on a solo jump? Or is anything under 1.0 perfectly safe for students?

The BPA have some rules in the UK. I'll need to check but I'm pretty sure .75:1 is max loading for 1st timers.

Rich M

[mattb 0]

There are a lot of different opinions on starting wingloading. Some dz's rely on gigantic student canopies all through AFF, some start around .9:1 or 1:1 and may downsize during AFF. One side believes bigger is always safer - the other side would argue that a student should receive instruction on gear similar to what he or she will probably buy after AFP.

One other factor to consider - what's the altitude of this DZ?

Matt

[Casch 0]

Well the reason I'm asking is that I'm about 275 out the door on a 290 SkyMaster. And this is the same wingloading I had on my first jump. I have been doing great, though I have a few PLF's under my belt that were pretty brutal from ground instructors trying to figure out when to have me flare My landings are alright now, I just have to work on standing them up I was just wondering if mine was an unusually high W/L

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It could be that the SkyMaster canopies you fly don't flare worth $hit. I remember when I was just starting I PLFed all the time (also flying a 290 Skymaster). But as soon as I started flying smaller canopies with the ability to flare I started standing up my landings. Go figure?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhreeZone 20]

Big student canopies tend to be the most used, and with the Skymaster and unless it was a hybrid one, it just might have been ragged out completely.

As for large students, they tend to have a higher starting weight then lighter students simple since most DZ's can't cost justify having a Navigator 340 laying around incase they one day get a student that needs it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,009]

>Or is anything under 1.0 perfectly safe for students?

.5 to 1 is deadly in the wrong hands; someone can easily make their first solo jump on a 1.5 to 1 canopy if their training is good. It's all in the training.

Case in point - we generally use mantas for our students. We have a few smaller canopies for tiny women (tri-190's) but the mantas get used most often. Our weight limit is 230; under special conditions (i.e. the guy is 250 but he's a linebacker; it's all muscle) we'll let someone jump at higher weights. A 250 lb guy has an exit weight of around 280, so he's loading that manta at almost 1:1. The ones who get good training are in good shape - they start off at a higher wingloading and thus never learn the bad habits that lighter students learn. They generally have little problem downsizing.

However, a 140lb woman is loading her canopy at about .6 to 1. She can flare, let the toggles up, flare again, and still be fine. She can flare assymetrically and be fine. When she goes to downsize, she's learned all those bad habits that make it difficult to land a smaller canopy. I think that's why some women have problems landing - they just never had to learn to do it.

So I don't think you can make any sort of rule like "under X loading is perfectly safe." It's all in training and natural aptitude, even though we often assume that everyone has the same skill when they start out (which isn't true.)

[AndyMan 7]

Wingloading is not enough, because as the exit weight increases, higher wingloadings become safer.

Someone with an exit weight of 280 lbs flying a manta (280 sq ft) is very differnt then someone with an exit weight of 150 flying a 150.

Whats the exit weight of the example you're asking about?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Well the reason I'm asking is that I'm about 275 out the door on a 290 SkyMaster. And this is the same wingloading I had on my first jump. I have been doing great, though I have a few PLF's under my belt that were pretty brutal from ground instructors trying to figure out when to have me flare My landings are alright now, I just have to work on standing them up I was just wondering if mine was an unusually high W/L

I'd say it's a higher than preferred wingloading, but really with your exit weight there aren't too many other options.

[Casch 0]

I'm about 250, right now around 255-260 after christmas so i'm gonna be about 1:1 this weekend

[PhreeZone 20]

Just be aware that only a few harnesses are TSO'd for anything over 255. Not saying it will break at 256 pounds, but technically... it doesn't have to

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AndyMan 7]

I have seen many students jump 280 square foot mantas at 1:1.

I'm not an instructor, so I won't comment if it's good or not, just that it is not a rare event.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rigging65 0]

Numbers are just numbers. You've got to take in all sorts of other issues: Density altitude for one, landing are size for another...the list goes on. For true first timers, playing it as safe as you can seems to be pretty smart...AFF students have this nasty habit of flaring waaaayyyy to high and thudding in.

We let the control lines out a bit on our student canopies, effectively "detuning" them so they can't easily stall under normal working conditions...this saves students from stalling the canopy at 40 feet and plummiting in under a stalling main. The trade off is slightly less flare at landing, so we keep the canopies conservative (about .8 or so) which helps make up for the detuning.

Just to play devil's advocate though...what happens when these guys and gals are off student status and are thrust into the sport world? How fast are they downsizing and would learning under something a little faster make them more ready to move into the current-use market?? Could we reduce canopy fatalities by teaching jumpers on SLIGHTLY smaller canopies sooner, with more intense training???

I'm just posing this as a question, as I'm interested in what folks think... Maybe some sort of a progressive canopy program that gets them flying something around 1.2 by the time they graduate (~20 jumps)?

Remember, this is a forum for thoughtful discussion, not a flame-athon. Have at it!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[billvon 3,009]

>Could we reduce canopy fatalities by teaching jumpers on SLIGHTLY
> smaller canopies sooner, with more intense training???

Yes. That has worked in other places, like SDC.

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

>Could we reduce canopy fatalities by teaching jumpers on SLIGHTLY
> smaller canopies sooner, with more intense training???

Yes. That has worked in other places, like SDC.

SDC weighs the jumper and adds the gear weight. Then adds 40 lbs to that number and then sizes the canopy at 1:1. If they are slightly over then they pick the next bigger size. Then the JM has the option to take them another size bigger according to the students performance on their tandems, the current conditions, the jumpers demeanor, and the JMs own experience with the program. When in doubt they converse with the other JMs about the student.

The idea is to -not- make them "students" again when trying to downsize later buying their first gear. They are watched more while going through all of the AFP levels (up to 20 jumps and the A license) on radio. When people come off the training program at SDC I see them buy canopies that are the same size or one size smaller than their last canopy used on student status.

I have to say it freaked me out the first time I taught someone to pack on their brand new gear with a Stilleto 150 and 30 jumps. But, after seeing this jumper (and many, many others) jump over the years since 1997 I really think it is the way to go in teaching people to survive off of student status in the modern skydiving world.

Chris

[Scoby 0]

Quote

SDC weighs the jumper and adds the gear weight. Then adds 40 lbs to that number and then sizes the canopy at 1:1. If they are slightly over then they pick the next bigger size.

Not sure if I fully understand this. Say someone is 150lbs and gear is 25lbs. That's 175, so they'd give the jumper a 210 or 230? Is that on the FJC or after they graduate AFF? What sort of canopy do they use?

[eeneR 3]

Quote

Not sure if I fully understand this. Say someone is 150lbs and gear is 25lbs. That's 175, so they'd give the jumper a 210 or 230? Is that on the FJC or after they graduate AFF? What sort of canopy do they use?

I will use myself as an example....I trained at SDC...

When I started AFP I was 140, so you take 140 add 40 lbs = 180. Threre is no Saber 2 180, so they moved me up to a 190 (as they move you up a canopy size if you fall in the middle). As I was finishing AFP I downsized to a Saber 2 170 After a few more jumps off student status I moved over to a Stilleto 170. Then downsized to a Stiletto 150 which is what I bought in my first rig. I have 150 jumps now still jumping the Stilleto 150.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[rigging65 0]

Ok, since were on the SDC line, does anyone have numbers on injuries there during their FJC jumps? There's a girl here who learned there, then moved away and now coaches for us that said nearly 1/4 of her FJC class of 10 or 12 (I can't remember which) had to be helped out of the field after their first day of jumping. Mostly turned ankles or road-rash-ish stuff.

I trained another guy in one of our Rigger's courses about 2 years ago who said something very similar. Now, both of these individuals are now very capable canopy pilots, but does a 25% injury rate sound high to anyone else? Can anyone substantiate this?

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I've heard bad things from a couple of people becuase of SDC putting people out on small-ish sabre 2's after FJC's etc

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[PhreeZone 20]

I watched SDC's student program for a few weekends last year and I honestly was impressed. The students recieved way more feedback and coaching on their canopy skills then I'd seen before for a new jumper. I saw one or two ankle burners, but they would have done the same under most canopies. What took a lot of getting used to (and I still don't like) is that most the people that had over 75 jumps were on Stilettos or smller Sabre2's.

Starting students smaller also means the ones that are'nt the brightest go and get smaller stuff for personal gear, but at least they know more then the basic survival skills on it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,009]

>I've heard bad things from a couple of people becuase of SDC
>putting people out on small-ish sabre 2's after FJC's etc

No one makes their first jumps on sabre-2's; they start with tandems (used to start with static lines too on larger canopies but I think they stopped doing that.) And on the contrary, I've heard _good_ things from people because they are teaching people to fly smallish sabre-2's during the student progression. If every DZ out there did that there would be fewer 100 jump wonder canopy fatalities.

[eeneR 3]

Heh, thats interesting seeing that I have been at SDC for over a year, most of the Major injuries or fatalitys were jumpers not trained at SDC.

Maybe a slight sprain of an ankle here and there, but that happens at any dropzone.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[AndyMan 7]

Their record on first AFF jump students is very good, infact. This is largely related to the manditory tandem beforehand, which seves two purposes. One, it reduces the amound of sensory overload - they know what to expect. Two, it gives the TM instructor an indication of how likely the student is to 'brain lock'.

Secondly, their good first AFF jump safety record is clearly related to the extensive canopy training they give beforehand. I hope more DZ's do this kind of training.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[eeneR 3]

If anyone is interested, here is the link to the SDC webpage with the general overview of the AFP program.

It gives you an idea of what is expected of the students on each dive. click on AFP, then click next to got the program information. Now keep in mind this is started after the student has done 2 acceptable tandems. The TM has to pass the student on to AFP. Our tandem students actually get to handle the canopy and do turns etc. so they are exposed with guidence to general canopy control.

http://www.skydivechicago.com/dive/dive_overview_frame.html

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto