Recommended Posts
rmcvey 0
i smell a canopy nazi.......
winsor 236
Quotei smell a canopy nazi.......
Okay, guilty as charged. I'm about 210# out the door, and I jump a 282 sq. ft. main.
And a 240.
And a 220.
And a 215.
And a 200.
And a 175.
And a 150.
And a 120.
Not to mention my primary main, which is a 99.
I'm just sick of putting people on backboards and helping get them into life flights.
I've watched far too many botched attempts at high performance landings, and have seen the best in the business come to grief.
The last two pond-swooping events where I was in attendance had something less than a 100% safety record - one guy femured and another was DOA.
If you want to swoop, cool. Just don't kid yourself about the ramifications of your actions.
Blue skies,
Winsor
RichM 0
Quote
If you want to swoop, cool. Just don't kid yourself about the ramifications of your actions.
Well said.
Rich M
rmcvey 0
First, I admire the work you do in your job.
And the canopy nazi joke was good natured (or meant to be)
So im not trying to offend you personally with this.
Quote
Okay, guilty as charged. I'm about 210# out the door, and I jump a 282 sq. ft. main.
And a 240.
And a 220.
And a 215.
And a 200.
And a 175.
And a 150.
And a 120.
Not to mention my primary main, which is a 99.
You have 9 canopies? Or are you describing your canopy progression?
Quote
I'm just sick of putting people on backboards and helping get them into life flights.
I've watched far too many botched attempts at high performance landings, and have seen the best in the business come to grief.
The last two pond-swooping events where I was in attendance had something less than a 100% safety record - one guy femured and another was DOA.
If you want to swoop, cool. Just don't kid yourself about the ramifications of your actions.
Do you carry out high performance landings? ie. swoops??
If yes, then like you said, youve seen the best come to greif, do you accept the ramifacations of your actions, that you may someday be on a backboard yourself??
Of course you do, even the pro's spank in occasionally, we all know the risks of fast canopies,
but we accept the risks in skydiving because, basically, its fun.
Why do you jump a wingload of 2:1??
Because its fun.
Is it dangerous (whether you swoop or not) ??
Yes.
Why you still jump a 99 sqft canopy at 2:1 but complain of landing injuries you've had to deal with is confusing.
Its like a anti-gun lobbyist who owns an mini gun.
But shoots it 'carefully'
Either your post was sarcastic (the one about the best swoop schools being the ones nearest to hospitals) if not im afraid to say in my opinion, your a canopy nazi
Quote
Blue skies,
Winsor
Blue ones.
dogyks 0
QuoteYou have 9 canopies? Or are you describing your canopy progression?
More like 18, if you include the ParaCommanders.
>I'm just sick of putting people on backboards and helping get them into life flights.
I've watched far too many botched attempts at high performance landings, and have seen the best in the business come to grief.
The last two pond-swooping events where I was in attendance had something less than a 100% safety record - one guy femured and another was DOA.
If you want to swoop, cool. Just don't kid yourself about the ramifications of your actions.
QuoteDo you carry out high performance landings? ie. swoops??
No, I carve, but I don't hook
QuoteWhy do you jump a wingload of 2:1??
For the performance.
QuoteBecause its fun.
The Raven IV is fun, too.
QuoteIs it dangerous (whether you swoop or not) ??
Yes. So's the Lazer. Welcome to skydiving.
QuoteWhy you still jump a 99 sqft canopy at 2:1 but complain of landing injuries you've had to deal with is confusing.
It isn't the equipment, it's the operator and his attitude.
QuoteIts like a anti-gun lobbyist who owns an mini gun.
But shoots it 'carefully'
Not quite. I'm a Certified Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun Instructor, whose focus is, indeed, safety. I also have an arsenal that would amaze you.
QuoteEither your post was sarcastic (the one about the best swoop schools being the ones nearest to hospitals)
Partly, but not entirely.
Quoteif not im afraid to say in my opinion, your a canopy nazi
Again, my complaint isn't the equipment, it's the operator.
Just because I think most people asking about the Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving would be better served by learning the fundamentals of highway safety does not mean that I haven't spent many, many hours well above 120 km/hr myself - quite the contrary.
Stick around - if you survive long enough, you'll figure it out.
Blue skies,
Winsor
rmcvey 0
You took several things out of context from my previous post.
Im not going to argue, you obviouslly have the right attitude and will never get hurt.
You make out everyone (except you) interseted in having fun under canopy is just a lemming with the 'wrong' attitude, queing up outside the swoop schools just itching to spank ourself into the ground. (but dont worry we are gonna learn at Laurel DE, so its not such a long trip to the ER)
Also in your post you said this......
QuoteI'm a Certified
Quotebut
QuotePart
Quoteoperator
Quoteand
Quotespent many, many hours
Quotelearning the fundamentals of
Quotean arse
Quotethat would amaze you.
Quoteif you survive long enough
to
seeQuote
mQuote
eQuote
PartQuote
myQuote
femurQuote
sQuote
andQuote
shootQuote
oneQuote
WinsorQuote
QuoteHigh Performance
Quotearse
QuoteStick
Quoteat
Quotewell above 120 km/hr
Quoteat
Quoteyou
Quote
..slightly out of context, but curious to what you are getting at?
winsor 236
Quote
You took several things out of context from my previous post.
Hey, I do the best I can.
QuoteIm not going to argue, you obviouslly have the right attitude and will never get hurt.
Quite the contrary - been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
QuoteYou make out everyone (except you) interseted in having fun under canopy is just a lemming with the 'wrong' attitude, queing up outside the swoop schools just itching to spank ourself into the ground. (but dont worry we are gonna learn at Laurel DE, so its not such a long trip to the ER)
If you're oversensitive, perhaps there's a reason you should be. Stick around, try to talk folks out of hurting themselves, and deal with the aftermath a few times. Maybe you'll get it.
QuoteAlso in your post you said this......
Quote..slightly out of context, but curious to what you are getting at?
If you can phrase that as a coherent question, I'll be glad to address it.
Blue skies,
Winsor
rmcvey 0
weee weee round in circles....
Your sick of seeing swoops go wrong.
You've seen 'the best in the business' get it wrong.
You admit 'been there done that got the tee-shirt' when it comes to getting hurt (im guessing you meant landings you have gotten wrong)
So even yourself makes mistakes.
You admit to jumping (what i presume) is a HP canopy @ 2:1
You swoop yourself, are at risk the same as any other relativly experienced jumper who swoops their canopy,
yet for you its OK, but for others to do, is a burden you would rather do with out at work.
The risk of messing up a swoop, and the thought of the distress it will cause those who have to help us when it does, doesnt stop us landing fast.
That includes you (or you wouldn't do it)
Or the risk of having a horse-shoe, reserve entanglement and all that follows, won't stop me jumping because of the mess i will make, it makes me practice my reserve drills before every jump..
...but it can still happen...
and it could happen to you.
So don't give me the
"its not the equipment, its the operator" crap.
Of course its the equiment.
The risk is greater on smaller canopies, or through swoops, but luckily people are starting to
teach one another at these canopy skills classes so they can lower the risk, and enjoy the fun fast landings can give.
If I wanted a perfectlly safe but mundane hobby which didnt stimulate me in any way, didnt get the adrenaline flowing, made no profound effect on my miserable life...didnt have all the awesome people we have in skydiving....
Id probably join a gun club.
CYa
PhreeZone 20
QuoteSo don't give me the
"its not the equipment, its the operator" crap.
Of course its the equiment.
No... its totally the operator. The Operator chooses how to use a piece of equipment, the equipment does'nt tell the operator how to use it. You can fly a canopy at 2:1 to a nice slow straight in landing, or you can fly a canopy at 1:1 and hook it hard and swoop with it. Both times the operator tells the equipment what to do. Unless its a design flaw *caugh*Nova*caugh* most open container fatilities are due to operators not doing something correctly.
QuoteThe risk is greater on smaller canopies, or through swoops, but luckily people are starting to
teach one another at these canopy skills classes so they can lower the risk, and enjoy the fun fast landings can give.
Thats a problem, making swooping appealing to the low timers. I'm really glad that we only have 2 or 3 serious swoopers at our DZ and only 4 or 5 that are learning out of a regular crowd of about 80-100 jumpers. Swooping is'nt for I'd guess at least 60-70% of the jumping population but yet some of those are the ones that try it since it looks so cool to an outsider. Stick around, see some legs get broken, see someone pound in hard and hear the call for the lifeflight since they hurt themself, be the one out there doing CPR on someone that just hooked in and a lot of the appeal of swooping goes down or away. Or what helped me learn the respect for a canopy was needing crutches for 5 weeks over a really badly sprained ankle on a botched hook.
Respect your canopy, its the only thing keeping you alive.
QuoteIf I wanted a perfectlly safe but mundane hobby which didnt stimulate me in any way, didnt get the adrenaline flowing, made no profound effect on my miserable life...didnt have all the awesome people we have in skydiving....
Id probably join a gun club.
Ever see the results of a blow out on a gun? Nice way to blow half a face off if not more. Blackpowder burns suck really bad too.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
rmcvey 0
QuoteNo... its totally the operator. The Operator chooses how to use a piece of equipment, the equipment does'nt tell the operator how to use it. You can fly a canopy at 2:1 to a nice slow straight in landing, or you can fly a canopy at 1:1 and hook it hard and swoop with it. Both times the operator tells the equipment what to do. Unless its a design flaw *caugh*Nova*caugh* most open container fatilities are due to operators not doing something correctly.
Yes i agree, as long as all the factors of risk are within the users control.
But what i was getting at is that type of equipment increases/decreases risk for one particular user.
Your operator flying at 2:1 is at more risk than when flying at 1:1
The very fact the user is flying a canopy at 2:1 would say that the user is not a novice and has grasped the basic concept of landing a parachute.
(hopefully
)
so the same jumper..
Eg jumper X on a 1:1 sabre for a 1000 jumps
is at less risk
than jumper X at 2:1 on a Velocity for a 1000 jumps.
because a) things can happen outside a users control which are much more dangerous on that type of canopy (ie highly loaded)in comparison (ie lightly loaded)
and b) shit happens.
So surely a jumper can control the risk factor with the parachute they use??
QuoteThe risk is greater on smaller canopies, or through swoops, but luckily people are starting to
teach one another at these canopy skills classes so they can lower the risk, and enjoy the fun fast landings can give.
QuoteThats a problem, making swooping appealing to the low timers. I'm really glad that we only have 2 or 3 serious swoopers at our DZ and only 4 or 5 that are learning out of a regular crowd of about 80-100 jumpers. Swooping is'nt for I'd guess at least 60-70% of the jumping population but yet some of those are the ones that try it since it looks so cool to an outsider. Stick around, see some legs get broken, see someone pound in hard and hear the call for the lifeflight since they hurt themself
be the one out there doing CPR on someone that just hooked in and a lot of the appeal of swooping goes down or away. Or what helped me learn the respect for a canopy was needing crutches for 5 weeks over a really badly sprained ankle on a botched hook.
So you got sucked in to the High Life of swooping too hey?
And yes accidents are not fun, and like i said i admire the guy for having to see that more than most. Muchos Respectos.
QuoteRespect your canopy, its the only thing keeping you alive.
QuoteIf I wanted a perfectlly safe but mundane hobby which didnt stimulate me in any way, didnt get the adrenaline flowing, made no profound effect on my miserable life...didnt have all the awesome people we have in skydiving....
Id probably join a gun club.
QuoteEver see the results of a blow out on a gun? Nice way to blow half a face off if not more. Blackpowder burns suck really bad too.
Bad example phree..
Ever seen a golfer struck by lightning
Ever seen a synchronised swimmer drown
Ever seen a tennis ball machine accident?
most crappy sports have some element of danger.
winsor 236
Quoteweee weee round in circles....
Your sick of seeing swoops go wrong.
I'm sick of people getting in over their heads and getting hurt or dying.
QuoteYou've seen 'the best in the business' get it wrong.
I've seen people get busted up under everything from T-10s to Class-5 canopies, and I've seen canopy pilots that I think are nothing short of awesome prang.
QuoteYou admit 'been there done that got the tee-shirt' when it comes to getting hurt (im guessing you meant landings you have gotten wrong)
Yup, broke my foot landing a 7-TU.
QuoteSo even yourself makes mistakes.
Damn straight, and I try to keep them surviveable.
QuoteYou admit to jumping (what i presume) is a HP canopy @ 2:1
Uh, yeah.
QuoteYou swoop yourself
No, I don't do anything to augment my landings.
Quoteare at risk the same as any other relatively experienced jumper who swoops their canopy,
yet for you its OK, but for others to do, is a burden you would rather do with out at work.
What was that all about? I don't begrudge people who know what they're doing taking risks for which they're prepared and fully understand. None of the world-class canopy pilots of my acquaintance got that way because it was a goal unto itself. It was an incidental byproduct of developing their very extensive skillset.
QuoteThe risk of messing up a swoop, and the thought of the distress it will cause those who have to help us when it does, doesnt stop us landing fast.
That includes you (or you wouldn't do it)
FWIW, you really don't have any idea of how and why I fly, and you are merely demonstrating that you don't know what I'm talking about, either.
QuoteOr the risk of having a horse-shoe, reserve entanglement and all that follows
That's one reason I jump a pullout - no horseshoe mode.
Quote, won't stop me jumping because of the mess i will make, it makes me practice my reserve drills before every jump..
I strongly support such a policy.
Quote...but it can still happen..
You know, you just might be right there.
Quoteand it could happen to you.
Wait a minute - are you suggesting that _I_ am not immune? I demand a recount!
QuoteSo don't give me the
"its not the equipment, its the operator" crap.
Of course its the equiment.
Boy, you sure got me there. If I had not used any equipment at all, and simply done a PLF like I was trained to do, I would have been just fine. Do I have it right now?
QuoteThe risk is greater on smaller canopies, or through swoops, but luckily people are starting to
teach one another at these canopy skills classes so they can lower the risk, and enjoy the fun fast landings can give.
You think maybe I use the highly pressurized canopy to minimize the effects of turbulence and rotors when jumping a larger, slower, less pressurized canopy presents a greater risk?
Nah, the only reason to jump such a canopy is to impress the chicks and whuffos. "Hey, y'all, watch this!"
QuoteIf I wanted a perfectlly safe but mundane hobby which didnt stimulate me in any way, didnt get the adrenaline flowing, made no profound effect on my miserable life...didnt have all the awesome people we have in skydiving....
You can only make it so safe, but you can make it downright fatal in a hurry if you are cavalier about risk management. That has been demonstrated time and again, and you might as well benefit from the lessons to be learned, since the tuition has been steep.
QuoteId probably join a gun club.
I hate to break it to you, but the stakes are just the same at a gun club as they are at a DZ. You only get to point a loaded gun at someone's chest once, and you are persona non grata for life. We fire millions of rounds a year without incident, even though a 12 ga. target load has twice the energy of the vaunted .44 magnum.
A botched swoop/hook/high performance landing can kill a bystander just as dead as a well-placed bullet. I'm not as sensitive as you might imagine to someone who took an innocent with them when they went Darwinian on us.
Blue skies,
Winsor
CYa
billvon 2,998
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>The very fact the user is flying a canopy at 2:1 would say that the
> user is not a novice and has grasped the basic concept of landing a
> parachute. (hopefully)
This is the crux of the problem. Today people are being advised to start at a 1.2 to 1 loaded canopy, and they often (within 200 jumps) progress to a 2 to 1 canopy - _without_ any formal training. With the proper training, such a progression is not a problem for most jumpers; without it, they are quite likely to become a statistic.
And when you talk to them about it? They're all exceptions, people who just have this natural gift for canopy flight.
>Your operator flying at 2:1 is at more risk than when flying at 1:1
I would argue that someone with proper training and experience is safer under a 2:1 canopy than someone who learned under a manta and is jumping a 1:1 canopy without additonal training.
> user is not a novice and has grasped the basic concept of landing a
> parachute. (hopefully)
This is the crux of the problem. Today people are being advised to start at a 1.2 to 1 loaded canopy, and they often (within 200 jumps) progress to a 2 to 1 canopy - _without_ any formal training. With the proper training, such a progression is not a problem for most jumpers; without it, they are quite likely to become a statistic.
And when you talk to them about it? They're all exceptions, people who just have this natural gift for canopy flight.
>Your operator flying at 2:1 is at more risk than when flying at 1:1
I would argue that someone with proper training and experience is safer under a 2:1 canopy than someone who learned under a manta and is jumping a 1:1 canopy without additonal training.
rmcvey 0
Quote
>Your operator flying at 2:1 is at more risk than when flying at 1:1
I would argue that someone with proper training and experience is safer under a 2:1 canopy than someone who learned under a manta and is jumping a 1:1 canopy without additonal training.
sorry, it reads slightly ambiguous...
i meant the 'same jumper', jumping at 2:1 as apposed to 1:1
billvon 2,998
>i meant the 'same jumper', jumping at 2:1 as apposed to 1:1
Often true, but sometimes not. Right here on dropzone.com we have a jumper who is convinced that lightly loaded canopies can't land for shit, sometimes they don't flare etc. This, of course, isn't true generally - but for this guy it may well be. He may simply be better at flying a 2:1 canopy than a .8:1 canopy, and if most of his training is under the smaller canopy, then he may also be safer under it.
It is, of course, worthwhile to learn to land both, since most people have larger F111 reserves. I also agree that for most people, the 1:1 canopy is going to be safer under more conditions than the 2:1 canopy.
Often true, but sometimes not. Right here on dropzone.com we have a jumper who is convinced that lightly loaded canopies can't land for shit, sometimes they don't flare etc. This, of course, isn't true generally - but for this guy it may well be. He may simply be better at flying a 2:1 canopy than a .8:1 canopy, and if most of his training is under the smaller canopy, then he may also be safer under it.
It is, of course, worthwhile to learn to land both, since most people have larger F111 reserves. I also agree that for most people, the 1:1 canopy is going to be safer under more conditions than the 2:1 canopy.
If you jump 2:1 @ 200 jumps... I will NOT be WATCHING the landings.
If you jump 1.3:1 @ 200 jumps... I am willing to HELP you with landings.
If you jump 1.3:1 @ 200 jumps... I am willing to HELP you with landings.
SlatonAirSports.com
CanopyPiloting.com
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites