gale 0 #1 December 19, 2002 I didn't feel comfortable posting this in the incidents section because I didn't see it, but I wanted to remind people anyway. The winds were whipping last weekend and some jumpers got on a load. Quite frankly I don't know how they got up because the winds were beyond allowable limits for at least one of the jumpers as he had a round reserve - had he have had to use it, we might have found him somewhere in the ocean, but I digress. The winds were strong and unpredictable. All four jumpers managed to land within a mile of each other (off field), but one landed on a roof and one broke his ankle landing on someones driveway. (The winds just got him when he flared) He's having surgery today. He has around 350 jumps with a fairly light wing loading. The other jumpers on the load had, 20 jumps, 65 jumps, and 110 jumps. What were they thinking!?? What were the more experienced jumpers thinking letting them board!?? My point here is: I know we all want to jump as much as we can, and it is the Canadian winter so we don't get many chances - but please don't jump in dangerous conditions. Walk away and live to jump another day. The jumper going into surgery really wishes he had. That's it. GaleI'm drowning...so come inside Welcome to my...dirty mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #2 December 19, 2002 Thats really an issue for them, the S&TA, and the DZO/DZM. And watch your fellow jumpers....did anyone tell them that it was a bad idea? Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #3 December 19, 2002 I don't know what people told them. Yes, I think watching other jumpers is important, if I had more experience, I might just have more weight in that area. But the most important thing is having good judgement yourself. GaleI'm drowning...so come inside Welcome to my...dirty mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #4 December 19, 2002 I may be a little unfeeling here, but it sounds like they (and perhaps others) learned a much needed lesson, and nobody died. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #5 December 19, 2002 Here are some standard responses/ comments I use: 1. Doing a cross-country today? 2. Why did you guys land off? Can't you spot?! (high winds are no excuse for landing off) 3. Trying to get in Parachutist? 4. Isn't it better to on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground? 5. Don't you think it's too windy today? If you think something is unsafe, speak up. Clearly you know something they are unaware of... Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #6 December 19, 2002 QuoteJumping in high winds by gale Oh the irony. Or is that just coincidence? Anyway . . . QuoteWhat were the more experienced jumpers thinking letting them board!?? As long as the jumpers had their A licenses, the responsibility of whether or not to jump in those conditions rests totally on their own shoulders. Each person is reponsible for his or her own poor judgement. Ok, poor judgement admissions time. I have jumped in winds that I knew had a very high risk of blowing myself and others off the DZ. As a matter of fact, I'll even admit that -once- I landed off the DZ because of this. I'll even admit that I suspected ahead of time that the winds were so high on that jump that there was a good chance that at least one of us were going to be injured. Of course, I never thought for a second it would be me -- and nobody did actually get injured, but in retrospect it's amazing that nobody died. The possibility of that was -very- real on that particular jump. It's funny what the "group" mentality does to people. Nobody wants to be the first person that says he's going to sit it out. Once ONE person says it, it's usually alright for other people to back down, but the group mentaility tells people to not be the first. It's very difficult to overcome. You can also add in pressure from outside sources as well. People have jumped for professional reasons (demos, movies, ect.) under really silly conditions that otherwise they wouldn't have. Some have paid for this with their lives. It's important to know your limits. The only way a person can do that is by progressively pushing them. What's silly is when you push them without the benefit of a completely clear head and perhaps as a part of the group mentality. I'd like to believe that I've learned my lesson, but only time will tell.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #7 December 19, 2002 Well, I can tell you right now that not all the jumpers had their A as it takes a minimum of 25 jumps to get it in Canada. Moreover, the wind limit for your A license is ooo, 15mph I think. So I'm thinking that the more experienced jumpers were much to blame here. But yup, personal responsibility is what it's all about. I agree. It would be nice to jump in a place where other people helped out though. Skydivers with very little experience may need a little more guidance. Gale (Oh, and yes the name is a coincidence. I didn't notice at all until you commented)I'm drowning...so come inside Welcome to my...dirty mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #8 December 19, 2002 If you are a responsible skydiver you know when to jump, and if you are a very responsible skydiver, you know when NOT to jump. My opinion.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #9 December 19, 2002 QuoteBut yup, personal responsibility is what it's all about. I agree. It would be nice to jump in a place where other people helped out though. Skydivers with very little experience may need a little more guidance. Well, if they were students, then they definitely shouldn't have been even allowed on the airplane. I'm surprised that the manifestors allowed this to happen. As for just low-time newbies getting guidance about hazardous weather -- the best place for this is usually the packing area before they're geared up. If you can show them that with all your great experience that -you're- not even going to gear up, then it takes a lot of pressure off them. Once people are geared up and in the loading area, it's pretty difficult to get them to change their opinion of the situation by only using subtlety. Once people are geared up and ready to go -- so is their ego.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #10 December 19, 2002 CSPA recommends 18mph max for A & B licence 25mph C & D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #11 December 19, 2002 Here are some standard responses/ comments I use: 1. Doing a cross-country today?.... Never fails. The standard response when the we're sitting on the ground because the winds are too high .... "Hey, let's do a cross country!"] Sure you can go a fare distance, but you still have to land. Of course that doesn't keep us from doing it once in a while. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #12 December 19, 2002 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jumping in high winds by gale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My sentiments exactly, Quade!________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #13 December 19, 2002 Thanks, I didn't have my PIM handy to check (OK, I should know it by heart - but I was close!) Gale I'm drowning...so come inside Welcome to my...dirty mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #14 December 19, 2002 Funny how often you see the people with 100-500 jumps on the loads where the people with 1000+ jumps aren't jumping due to winds. You would think they'd get the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #15 December 19, 2002 Gale said: QuoteThe other jumpers on the load had, 20 jumps, 65 jumps, and 110 jumps. and then Samurai136 said: Quote5. Don't you think it's too windy today? We all know, at least I hope we do, that there are times when it's better to sit on the ground than it is to jump. Unfortunately at 20, 65, and even 110 jumps I think that the urge to jump is so strong that people ignore the conditions or get themselves so pumped up about the jump that they do it anyway, even when they know it's a bit riskier than it needs to be. It's unfortunate and I think most people learn their lesson without getting injured, unfortunately some don't. New jumpers: When you see the guys with thousands of jumps who are on every load sitting down, maybe you should sit down too. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #16 December 19, 2002 ... could be the Gold Wings Guys (and gals) are just bored of, um, exciting landings? In the case that started this thread I think we likely have some very brave (or stupid) people. I know I've been on loads where ground conditions have changed dramatically (both up and down in winds, change of direction, change of cloud cover) and landings have been a learning experience. One of the best lessons I learned was under a student Cruiselite about jump #20, right at the end of my student status. Ground winds picked up from steady 10-12 to an 18 gusting 25 nightmare. Even the senior seniors were surprised by the change (all 3 of them in our C-182) My radio guidance (this jump was among the last of my student jumps) got me down just outside the peas and only about 50 ft of dragging before I was able to entirely collapse the chute. On my own I'm sure I'd wave well overshot the target and landed among the CL-215 Water Bombers. I bet after 1,000 jumps I'll think differently of HIGH winds (and I bet our equipment is a lot different in 7-8 years) but I doubt I'll ever warm up to GUSTS. Dave Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #17 December 20, 2002 Last weekend when I went down to the DZ is was blowing 20kn consistantly. On the ground. That day we just sent up tandems. Did about 3 loads I think. One the first load, we had one experienced jumper go up (1000+). I was watching him under canopy and he was hooking along. It must have been 20-30 kn at altitude. I go backwards in 15 kn winds. I have landed off a couple of times due to wind. 1st time was when I had about 10ish jumps. Landed backwards in a paddock about 800m away. 2nd time I opened downwind. I don't know how that happened, everyone else opened ok.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #18 December 20, 2002 Being from the windy prairies, I learned early on how to jump in winds...otherwise I'd have never got any jumps in. As a student, I was dragged several times for a couple of hundred yards while jumping rounds with conventional gear...but, being young and stupid somehow protected me from harm. I have since been manifested on several loads over the years where the winds were high - not too high for me - but likely too high for others on the load....some of whom were obviously nervous about the winds but hesitant to scratch for fear the more experienced people might make fun of them. I have scratched several times and saved the less experienced people the razzing...or worse. Just a suggestion to keep in mind...sometimes the best thing for somebody else is for you to back down. Gale, I'm surprised, knowing the UH owner (I assume you were at UH because your profile says you are from Victoria), that these relatively inexperienced people were allowed to go in such high winds. Too bad about the broken ankle but it could have been worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #19 December 20, 2002 PM'dI'm drowning...so come inside Welcome to my...dirty mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #20 December 20, 2002 Last weekend, the winds were a little over 15 (no AFFs at 15+) So here is me finished my AFF the day b4, and jumpimg the 230 not the 270, One Jm saiys to me if a bit windy, you know the AFF students are grounded. DZSO says you should be OK on the 230. WRONG. There I have a 300 feet making my final turn to go cross wind then into wind. The turn for some reason takes longer than expceted, and I'm now too far downwind of the X. So I turn into wind and start to look for an alternate landing spot. Canopy is going no where but down. So now Squeak starts to think hmmm, the trees below me don't look very inviting. so now I have to start to think where to go. I'm about to turn and go down wind to a clear area, when previously mentioned JM walks out of the hanger and points to a place cross wind, I take the subtle hint and follow his guidance, I pass over the cessna by about 20 feet and land into wind (almost) on uneven ground but safe and Upright.If the AFF's are grounded so am I. You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grosfion 0 #21 December 20, 2002 reminds me what my old instructor said: at this days the experienced jumpers stay on the ground and the non-experienced jumpers going to get their experience.... M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #22 December 20, 2002 Quote Funny how often you see the people with 100-500 jumps on the loads where the people with 1000+ jumps aren't jumping due to winds. You would think they'd get the point. good point Bill. I've done that before at the Hills. I (along with 3 others) stood down on a 60-way because the winds were just too damn gusty (30+ gusts). I saw less experienced jumpers getting geared up and asked them "do you see the experienced people standing down? There's a reason for it. We don't want to kill ourselves." So I tend to beat around the bush a bit, but at least I told them what I thought about it and cleared my conscious.arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puffdaddy 0 #23 December 20, 2002 Aren't you glad that you were not under that 150 you wre looking at to buy. Cheers" You have never lived until you've almost died, and for those who has experienced it, life has a flavour the protected would never understand" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #24 December 20, 2002 I was on a load during AFF...it was windy, but not bad. We jumped, and I landed in a huge gust. Found out that as we left the plane, the pilot held the rest of the load (all students) because manifest had radioed that the winds had really picked up since we'd taken off. I recall being really concerned in the air...but I did land it going forward, and I did land it on my toes. One thing I do when I get to the dz is figure out who's there, who I'll "watch" today". I find a jumper who I know beyond doubt is a "safe" jumper - not someone who takes risks...John Brasher, Jan Meyer, whomever, and check to see what they're doing if the winds pick up. And I also have a rule: if AFF isn't going, I'm not going. If I have questions, I ask. And I watch. I also think that, even with my low numbers, if I see something wrong, I have a responsibility to say something. If someone's chest strap isn't routed right, the winds are too high, whatever, I make a point of saying something...I do think that ultimately, we are responsible for ourselves, but if it's a low number jumper, maybe he isn't aware of something, maybe he doesn't know. Maybe he hadn't thought about it. I dunno, maybe something. But if I say something, maybe he'll rethink it. Maybe not. But maybe. Just my .02 Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #25 December 20, 2002 the 150 would prbably been better due to the winingloading and less surface area to get blown back. But I could be very wrong about this course I know next to bugger all about this sport. But I'm learning You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
