Sabre 135 @ 1.5:1??????

[mewing120 0]

Just wanted to get some input. I have jumped an old 185 turbo Z for about 300 jumps and have played around with a few other canopies. recently I flew a sabre and a stiletto 135 w/o problem. I am very confident in my skill under canopy and never felt that it was too much. Well, now I'm buyng the 135 sabre and just hope that I won't regret downsizing too fast. Has anyone out there had similar experience with a sabre at similar wingloading and what are your thoughts about performance on a wide variety of conditions. I don't do high speed landings and I guess landing is my main concern. Any thoughts about that? I'll have it loaded at about 1.5. Will straight in landings be comfortable in a lot of conditions?

Ora Vivo

[grosfion 0]

If you already jumped it and you felt confident, what is you problem????
After more than 300 jumps you should know what you want.
M

[Zlew 0]

The sabre will do it's job at that wing loading just fine. I've jumped sabres at about 1:7 and they flew very well... (notice i didn't say anything about the opennings......). That seems like a pretty big step to go from a 185 to a 135. It just depends on you man, you might be find, or you might wish you took things a little bit more progressivly. The canopy will do it's part, make sure you do yours. As you increase wing loding everything gets faster and margin for error gets smaller. Don't let murphy (of murphy's law) kick your ass.
but as far as the canopy goes, 1.5 is not at all more than the wing can handle for normal (or any) approaches/ landings.

Z

[sdctlc 0]

The Sabre2 is very nice and behaves well. you can go fast or go a little slower. With the load your looking at you are going to not be able to go too slow but you should be ok. Straight in approaches give nice landing w/o extra input but if you go double fronts or a 90 to landing you can get a good amount of speed and good flare. The "2" will tend to dive a bit more than the Sabre so be aware that the recovery arc will be a little longer than the turbo, but if your aware of that and see its characteristics up high you will be fine. The openings with the "2" were, when I jumped one, loaded at 1.65-1.7, mostly on heading. Canopy never thought about opening fast though.
They are nice canopies with a good mid range performance. If you want to push it you can or you can get back from a long spot with a little rear and legs up. Have fun with the canopy and be safe!

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[billvon 2,995]

>I am very confident in my skill under canopy and never felt that it was too much.

Can you:

-flare turn at least 45 degrees?
-flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet?
-land with rear risers?
-land safely crosswind and no wind?
-land on slight uphills and downhills?
-land consistently on a 10 meter target?
-do a high performance landing with double fronts?
-do a HP landing with a riser turn to final?

Once you can do all that, you are ready to downsize. If the idea of doing those things scares you, you're not ready.

>I don't do high speed landings and I guess landing is my main
> concern. Any thoughts about that? I'll have it loaded at about 1.5.
> Will straight in landings be comfortable in a lot of conditions?

You have to know how to do high performance landings. Every year, people who never do high performance landings die when they try to turn too low and do an unintentional high performance landing, just 50 feet too low. Once you learn to do them, you will be less likely to have a problem with them, and will be able to avoid canopy collisions even at 50 feet.

[Rdutch 0]

The people to ask if a canopy is right for you, is the peopel at your Dz. They see you land more than anyone, and can see if your handling it ok, how conservative you are, and if your ready for it.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Deuce 1]

I think BillVons list is important. I was sure I was competent at every one of those things before I downsized.

Remember, though, that with the same control inputs you will be faster and lower than you were on the bigger canopy. When you are at that sweet spot above the field and you pull down the risers for final, you will get to the flare point much faster. The same riser grab, for the amount of time you may have gotten used to, will bounce you.

My experience is from downsizing from a Spectre 170 to a Spectre 150. The 150 is loaded about 1.53:1. I absolutely love the increased performance, and wouldn't go back.

Just take your time. You are really starting almost from scratch when you downsize.

Good luck!

[Ron 10]

I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here:

Did some looking:

Of the canopy deaths this year (which I hope is done)

1. 135 jumps, .9 wingload. Panic turn to avoid an object
2. 270 jumps, 1.67 wingload. Hook.
3. 200 jumps, 1.7 wingload. Hook
4. 275 jumps, 1.63 WL. Hook
5. 201 jumps, ???? WL. Panic turn to avoid object
6. 1500 jumps, ??? WL. Hook into water.
7. 500 jumps, ???? WL. No info if hook or panic
8. 170 jumps, 1.29 WL. Hook
9. 160 jumps, 1.31 WL. Hook
I didn't include the canopy collapse stuff.

Notice anything?
Only one jumper with over 600 jumps.
7 under 300
2 panic turns with one unknown.

I see a very clear low jump # and high wingload issue.
This is why I am Canopy NAZI #3!!!!!

All info was taken off of USPA/Barrys pages (which he does not run anymore, but I am not sure who is now.)

So, You are right in the 300 jumps, 1.5 wingload area....
I bet every single one of these people thought that they could also handle the canopy that they had.

They are also all dead.

I bet there are hundreds of others out there that CAN handle this situation. But they ALL thought they could. The differance is that some didn't.

I think it is clear that a high wingload with low experiance is a large factor in a lot of deaths/accidents.

When you think about it, 300 jumps is not a lot.

If you were a golfer and only hit 300 balls, you would not be very good. Even with good coaching you would not be very good. If the NBA pro's only shot at the hoop 300 times they would be looking for other work.

300 jumps is only 300 times landing a canopy...thats not a lot. And the cost of screwing up is very high.

At 300 jumps you have around 5 hrs of freefall....Imagine any other sport that you want, and do it for only 5 hrs, 300 times. You will not be very good. The differance is in the frame of referance. You have 300 jumps, which is a lot more than most of the world, and a fair number of jumps for a lot of DZ's. But in reality its not a lot, it just is in skydiving.

I like what Brian Germain says....
You jump # and your wingload should correspond.
100 jumps 1.1 wingload
200 jumps 1.2
300 1.3
400 1.4
500 1.5

I think it is a little high at the 500 jump and up mark, but it is a good guide.

Yes it can be done faster, but at what cost?

How much are you willing to risk your life?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mewing120 0]

Thanks for the input Ron. Your Stats are definately an eye opener. Like I said in my initial post I don't hook, nor do I believe in it. It is good for some, but not for me. And as far as needing the ability to do a high speed riser approach to final.......have we looked at the fatality reports lately? Although I agree that someone should know how to react to an unintentional hook (avoiding obsticles etc..), you also must keep in mind how you get yourself into that situation. Are you intentionally landing in a crowded area where the possiblilty of a collision is higher? remember the saying "a long walk is better than a short crawl"? Do you have "tunnel vision", only focusing on where you are, and not where others are? There is definately a trend with jump numbers and wing loading, but what kind of skydivers were they? Hot rods, conservative, heads-up? we don't know. Such a high percentage of fatalities happen under perfect canopies. It doesn't make sense. Although we can all learn a great deal from others in these forums do we really know eachother. No. Like was said earlier the best people to judge are those who you jump with every day. And as far as jump#/wingloading chart, I would hardly decide what type of canopy I am ready to be under from it. Each person is different. I know people around my #'s that eat dirt and break tailbones constantly because they hook in under a highly loaded canopy. On the other end I know very conservative people with high number of jumps who cannot reliably stand up a landing because of other factors. Each case is different, and must be treated as such. It comes down to knowing yourself and respecting the opinions of those who know you.

Thanks for all the feedback, be safe.
Mike

Ora Vivo

[rhino 0]

Once you go small you are screwed...

Although I have never done drugs in my life it can probably be compared to becoming addicted to the speed.

If you don't go small you won't know what you are missing therefor you won't become addicted.

Take your time..

Rhino

[mewing120 0]

Yes, I'm screwed. I have tasted greener pastures. Seems it is the same for you Rhino huh?

Ora Vivo

[PhreeZone 20]

After grabbing a smaller wing go jump your normal canopy for a few jumps. I'm always amazed on what little things I've missed on my larger wing that I suddenly find after jumping a smaller canopy. I still learned a lot about the student gear by taking it for a few jumps this summer again. I was able to get the canopy to hit reverse for a few seconds before the stall kicked in and all.

Greener pastures are a learning opprotunity on the old pastures as well.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rhino 0]

Quote

Yes, I'm screwed. I have tasted greener pastures. Seems it is the same for you Rhino huh?

Yep... People tend to think I progressed too quickly..

That was until they watched me swoop at the wffc.. Damnit Clay... One of the best swoops I had across the pond and he didn't turn his camera on.. lol


Rhino

[Tink1717 2]

I jump a Sabre 2 135 @ 1.6
It flies great lands good under all condititions and is an all around great canopy.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717