grosfion 0 #1 November 27, 2002 Hi, just saw a advertisement from a local DZ operator on the net. He offers the following: ________________________________________ Course Fees The course fees 852US$. It includes the following: Course Materials Theory Examination Ground Training 1 Video Jump 10 Jumps 10000ft guaranteed Minimum Students to start the Course: Two person Instructors Appointed by Checking and Chief Instructor - Equipments: Participants need to have their own equipments. Rental is available on a case-to-case basis. Jump 1 The exit, positioning, climbing out, grips and the count. Chasing, Approaching, Docking and picking up of grips Visual Contact, Looking to the Center./Freefall Signals Break Off Altitude Turn and Track Look Around and above Wave and Dump. Land within 20m - standing Jump 2 The exit, positioning, climbing out, grips and the count Chasing, Approaching, Docking and Flying into Slot Visual Contact, Looking to the center/Freefall Signal Break off altitude Turn and Track Look around and Above Wave and Dump. Land within 20m - standing Jump 3 and 4 The exit, positioning, climbing out, grips and the count Linked exit, Flying into different slots Visual contact, looking to the center/Freefall Signals Flying the formation, Tension Break off altitude Turn and track Look around and above Wave and Dump Land within 20m - standing Jump 5 and 6 The Exit, Positioning, climbing out, grips and the count Mental rehearsal / using creepers Linked Exit, 90/180/360 turns within the formation Using legs and eyes Visual contact, looking to the center/Freefall Signals Flying the formation, tension Break - Off Altitude Turn and Track - Barrel Role Looking around and above Wave and Dump Land within 20m - Standing Jump 7 and 8 The exit, Positioning, Climbing out, grips and the count Mental Rehearsal/using creepers Push and pull Techniques Using Legs and Eyes Visual contact, looking to the center/Freefall Signals Flying the formation, tension Break-off altitude Turn and Track Looking around and above Wave and dump Land within 20m Jump 9 & Evaluation Plan you own 3 way with stamped pictures and creepers Plan Exit, positioning, Climbing out, grips and the count ______________________________________________ What do you think about that? The aircraft is a 172. Is that a normal price? Btw a AFF Course (9 level) cost: US$2175 blues Marcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #2 November 27, 2002 Is this in Singapore? I don't know what the exchange rate to US$ is like out there, but I paid a similar price for AFF in South Africa. (of course the air-fare to South Africa is about $1 000US). Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grosfion 0 #3 November 27, 2002 yes it's in Singapore and the prices ARE in US $!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #4 November 27, 2002 That was my point, maybe the price is cheap in US$ because the local currency is not very strong? Maybe avgas isn't taxed very highly there? Maybe this is just a special the DZ is running? I don't think anybody who doesn't know the full local situation (economy, DZO etc.) is going to be able to tell you whether or not that is a rip-off. Maybe it is just a legitimate good deal? Will PS btw you don't need the course, so why the concern? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #5 November 27, 2002 Ah, sounds like a typical, cheesy, Skydive U thing. [pakistani voice] "Please to be paying me all of your American dollars so that I can afford new tires for my Porsche." [/pakistani voice] Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kopelen 0 #6 November 27, 2002 WOW, I pretty intense FJC, never seen any students dock and redock on their first jump. Exceptions being those that had some serious windtunnel time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swarley 0 #7 November 27, 2002 Quote . Rental is available on a case-to-case basis. Good Deal! Equipment for BEER! Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #8 November 27, 2002 Yep, sounds like a Skydive U thing. Most DZs have some sort of program or the real thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlie 0 #9 November 27, 2002 That means you kana rip off la! My other ride is the relative wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #10 November 28, 2002 Its not a FJC, its a RW introduction and training course. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #11 November 28, 2002 Whatever happened to the good ol' system of the 'oldtimers' going up and helping the low timers for the heck of it? Quote "..can afford new tires for my Porsche." Ironicly, the cost of that course would be about the cost of a decent set of 17inch 'shoes' plus mounting and balancing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 November 28, 2002 QuoteWhatever happened to the good ol' system of the 'oldtimers' going up and helping the low timers for the heck of it? 1) You have to be an USPA Instructor or an USPA Coach to jump w/ someone w/o an USPA License. 2) DZO's realized they can make more $$$, charging for these coach jumps. 3) The sport is becoming more and more commercialized and less and less "club" oriented. 4) DZO's make little $$$ of new USPA "A" license holders, maybe selling them gear/renting gear, so they tend to focus th DZ where the $$$ is, students and mass quanties of fun jumpers that make 5-10 jumps/day. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #13 November 28, 2002 Whatever happened to the good ol' system of the 'oldtimers' going up and helping the low timers for the heck of it? The old-timers got burnt-out, so now they let the paid staff do boring stuff like: packing, manifesting, training students, coaching, etc. the last time I coached for free was when the club was covering my slot and there were no tandems that day. If this RW Program employs serious coaches with ratings issued by Skydive U, CSPA or USPA, then you will get what you pay for. If you are dealing with a good-old-boy who just hung out a "coach" shingle, don't waste your money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #14 December 2, 2002 Your post indicates it's a RW course, not a fist jump course. I'm not sure what a typical Cheesy[email] course, like Skydive U is but I've been an active SDU Coach since 1995 and if it's true RW training you want find a SDU Coach and go there. We do an evaluation jump to decide where your skill level fits in the course. There are several home made courses around every DZ and I have copies of several but if you truly want real cost effective training with no "cheese" contact Skydive University. Blues.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4waynut 0 #15 December 3, 2002 why, that sounded an awful lot like a PLUG for Skydive U! Imagine that! Unluckily for the rest of the world I went to Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf tonight and forgot to order decaf. I loved SDU and went though it. I did find it pricey though and felt my coaches were pushing me to spend more money and felt constrained by the strict curriculum. I feel that there are other ways to pursue good up to date RW skills applicable to all disciplines. --Get out to the SkyVenture wind tunnel in Orlando FL. Do it! --If a trip to the tunnel too spendy at the moment, at least visit the SkyVenture website and contact the NSL coaches for advice. Why ask us weekenders in the usergroups when you can get answers from folks who have won Open-Class 4-way medals and are experienced at teaching and coaching all types of RW? --Get hold of the Open-Class 4-way video from a recent competition such as the US Nationals and watch those skydives in slow motion. Pay attention specifically to the use of arms and legs, the arch, the movement. Visualize yourself doing it that way. Then watch yourself honestly in slow motion and figure out what techniques you might apply to improve your own flying. --Make something happen at your DZ. I started convincing other weekenders to pitch in for shared coach days and mini-camps at my drop zone from medaled Open-Class 4-way competitors. Here are some real quotes people have actually said to me when I invite them to participate in a day of coaching from a world-class RW coach with a 20+ 4-way average, at a cost of $30 plus shared video: --"I do mostly big-way RW so I don't need the kind of body flight skills taught by these coaches" (how about vertical adjustments, forward movement, and sharp stops?) --"I am already a good flyer, I only need a coach if I get on a 4-way team" (anyone who thinks they are a good flyer and has not yet been to the wind tunnel is kidding himself...ask anyone who has been there. The humility on day 1 of every tunnel camp is palpable). --The "mantis" is not good for big-way flying (check out the 300-way video or the JFTC video and you might see some mantis flyers---they will likely be the ones flying stable, in their slot, and on level). --You can't learn the "mantis" or good body flight skills until you master the "box-man" (position nomenclature is irrelevant, stable body flight is its own definition and it should be learned as early as possible---I wish there were another way to describe the latest techniques in good body flight, but the "mantis" name seems to have stuck). --The "mantis" is not a stable body position. (Just try and make an open-class 4-way competitor unstable when he's in a hands-on-the-ball/head-up/legs employed 4-way stance---aint gonna happen!) --"I'm just in this for the fun, I jump with the load organizers and that's good enough for me." (I have no comeback for this and always smile and accept it, but frankly I can't understand someone not wanting to suck less). Hitting the wall now, gotta post this thing and get off this uncomfortable soapbox. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #16 December 3, 2002 Ouch!! that sounds a bit pricey.(and you are jumping from a Cessna?) If you go for that deal, I'd like to interest you in some swamp land in Hartville, Ohio... Jump in with an RW group and save some bucks. If you need some speciality help, find an individual and buy their jump to assist you in learning. Better yet, spend some time at Skyventure. It's the best bang for the buck."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #17 December 3, 2002 Yes Skydive U is pricey, but you get what you pay for. Skydive U developed from coaching techniques developed by the then-World Champion 8-way team that was based in Canada during the late 1970s and early 1980s. When Rob Laidlaw figured out that he could not make a living as a professional skydiver in Canada, he took his coaching skills south to start Skydive U, ergo CSPA's coaching programs closely resemble Skydive U programs. It is amazing how much Australian Parachute Federation coaching programs resemble CSPA programs. Apparently USPA is trying to bring their coaching program up to par with Skydive U. When coaching, I tend to be low key, almost like a load organizer. Good load organizers are coaches. They just happen to be coaches who work with large groups of experienced jumpers. The better load organizers have their heads on a swivel and give advice to improve the performance of slower team members. As a CSPA Coach 2, even if I am not on the load, I like to observe landings and give advice. For example, the visiting jumper who landed sideways last weekend was doing 7/8 of his flare correctly, so I told him to continue doing what he was doing for 4 more seconds. There are a wide variety of coaching programs out there, some DZ-specific, some internationally recognized. I prefer to deal with coaches who have at least nationally recognized certification. The best coaches rightfully demand the best pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grosfion 0 #18 December 3, 2002 Ok guys, thanks for the infos I understand your point. But I think we are talking about a very basic course here. I know Ulli from Skydive U in Perris but this is a totally different league. This guys here are NOT SDU coaches the chief instructor never did any professional competition and the instructors are mainly S/L instructors with a few hundred jumps. It's true that I probably don't need the course (you never know), but for me it sounds like a rip-off. But maybe there are a lot of people willing to pay that money.. blues Marcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cockroach 0 #19 December 4, 2002 Quote The course fees 852US$. It includes the following: Course Materials, Theory Examination, Ground Training, 1 Video Jump, 10 Jumps, 10000ft guaranteed [snip description of 10 jumps the RW course] What do you think about that? The aircraft is a 172. Is that a normal price? Btw a AFF Course (9 level) cost: US$2175 Wah lau, this is no chicken feed lah! Instructors better be world champions of singapore. Ah see, Chief instructor also team leader of the historical "white stars", the display team that black holed other teams from Australia, Malaysia, France and USA. This mama damn cartoon lor. Better look closer at their training: QuoteJump 1 * The exit, positioning, climbing out, grips and the count. * Chasing, Approaching, Docking and picking up of grips * Visual Contact, Looking to the Center./Freefall Signals * Break Off Altitude * Turn and Track * Look Around and above * Wave and Dump. * Land within 20m - standing Kanina, so busy jump! Ooops, only 2 first lines relevant to the training. Sounds great: the subtle difference between docking and "picking up of grips". QuoteJump 2 # Chasing, Approaching, Docking and Flying into Slot [repetitive stuff removed] Me slow or what? WTF is different? I see: jump 1 cannot dock in time from a free exit at "1000ft guaranteed" unless king jame version ah. QuoteJump 3 and 4 * Linked exit, Flying into different slots * Flying the formation, Tension [repetitive stuff removed] Much better, now, maybe you can fly the formation. Not serious about docking on jump 2 either. QuoteJump 5 and 6 # Mental rehearsal / using creepers # Linked Exit, 90/180/360 turns within the formation # Using legs and eyes [repetitive stuff removed] Dat's powderful training ah. 90/180/360 turns on creepers or what? Learning "90/180/360 turns within the formation" in 2 jumps from "10000ft guaranteed"... Cannot lah! QuoteJump 7and 8 * Push and pull Techniques [repetitive stuff removed] Huh?!? Turning block or what? Yeah, two jumps enough. QuoteJump 9 & Evaluation * Plan you own 3 way with stamped pictures and creepers * Plan Exit, positioning, Climbing out, grips and the count * Formation a minimum of 4 points. * Theory Test on Safety on RW [repetitive stuff removed] 4 points, 3 way, 2 beginners... good luck! QuoteThe participants will be cleared to do RW Jumps with formation not greater than 8 ways. Why so kiasu? Only 8 way after this wonderful training? Anyway, will never be world champion out of singapore with basic boxman RW training lah (i guess boxman because he never tells about new position). Not say i say what ah, but once more he will ali baba local skydivers with all fart and no shit. Go Genting for wind tunnel (vely cheap) and go Jakarta for basic training (still cheap). Next time you go australia, if you need b-rel, do it there (also cheap). If you really wannabe world champion, go Australia, Europe or USA. Cockroach #9683271 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #20 December 5, 2002 No, not an advertisement. But if you believe in something it's difficult not to share your enthusiasm. An honest answer to what appears to be an honest question. Besides I'm not a "campus" I set my own rates. And take on only students that are committed to the time and training. That way you get more than what you pay for. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
