Ruffles 0 #1 November 30, 2002 Ok, first I'd like to apologize for brining this damn subject up again since you were all so kind and tolerant humoring my paranoia before, but I watched this "breakaway" video and I'm all wound up again. For those of you who have had a cut-away from a NON-spinning malfunction, what body position did you happen to fall away in? Reason I'm asking, the video showed this cat doing a snap back flip as he cut away from a stuck slider mal and I was thinking how cool it would be had an RSL been on that rig when he flipped (not). Now relative Workshops did the vid and I know they are no fans of the RSL, so I was wondering if the guy probably flipped on purpose or if people generally fall away face first? Any takers on this one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #2 November 30, 2002 i think your talking about the one with the baglock. no i doubt he intentionally backlooped as he chopped. Thing is, that was a high speed mal, while it stood him upright under the baglock he was still going very fast if not faster than usuall freefall, so when the pilot chute that was keeping him upright detached, he was in an unstable position, thats why it flipped him over. Yes if he had an RSL things might not have been so good so this is one of the many things you need to weigh up when you decide weather you want one or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #3 November 30, 2002 Actually I had one malfunction (of my 4) that just after I cutaway and pulled my reserve I had the thought that it might get interesting. The reason is I was spinning on my back with an RSL, oh, and a tandem student with me. It was a clean, no line twist opening. Remeber your training and react to the situation. I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffles 0 #4 November 30, 2002 I guess my question is, is there anyway to prevent flipping during a cutaway and does this occur frequently? I realize I have to make my own decision about this, but you have to appreciate how frustrating it is when 30 people have answered my question with "You'll have to decide for yourself". You have to undersand that the reason I'm asking in the first place is so I can decide for myself. No one seems to have any real feedback on this and that scares me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #5 November 30, 2002 Although there is no way to ensure every scenario, most non spinning cutaways (from something with significant drag) will provide you with a surge forward (head low), I have never had or talked to anyone who had a problem with a flip. My only comparison (although not really the same)would be a diving exit. Some people have problems at first and flip, but then usually quickly learn to control it. Hope this is of some help. I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 November 30, 2002 The flip is intentional. Punch a hard arch and that will counter any motion thats acausing you to back flip. Get some still air exits from either a chopper or a balloon if you want ot see how low airspeed feels and how easy its to move.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #7 November 30, 2002 QuoteThe flip is intentional. Punch a hard arch and that will counter any motion thats acausing you to back flip. Get some still air exits from either a chopper or a balloon if you want ot see how low airspeed feels and how easy its to move. DId you talk to Billy and ask him? not inflamatory, I truely am interested in that. It seems to me that it can go either way, he's stood up under a bag lock, depending on where the air is it could backloop him easily. FWIW, break away is NOT a relative work production. Pier media did it. they filmed at DeLand, it just so happens many experts they used (Bill being one) are local to the DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 December 1, 2002 I was going off of Dropzone (the movie), yeah I know its not the best source of info but at the breakaway they did a back flip on purpose off of it. (And I think Bill did that stunt too)Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #9 December 1, 2002 QuoteI was going off of Dropzone (the movie), yeah I know its not the best source of info but at the breakaway they did a back flip on purpose off of it. (And I think Bill did that stunt too) Oh gotcha, Break away is totally different, it actually covers many mals very well. In it, Billy Weber (who I think ended up in your neck of the woods) did most of the test jumps, they were planned in detail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SniperCJ 0 #10 December 1, 2002 Ive had 2: the first one I fell away kinda in a sitting position.. The second one, I arched really hard as I cut and fell away in a perfect arch JC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #11 December 2, 2002 I think Billy did the back flip 'cause it was cool. Just arch like hell before you chop, and you should do fine."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERICCONNELLY 0 #12 December 2, 2002 I have one cut-away from a bag lock where I was upright from the drag of the pilot chute. Since I was looking straight up at the spinning bag as I chopped, I did a back flip (Not intentional) as soon as the risers released. I do not use RSL. I was in a hard arch when I chopped, looking up and went BTE very fast and pulled silver. Was way scary and very cool in retrospect but I wouldn't want a repeat, thank you. E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #13 December 2, 2002 I'm no expert on the subject but I'll take a guess here anyway. My feeling is if he had an RSL he probably wouldn't have flipped from that stand up position. Reason being the loss in drag from the departing main bag would be replaced by the reserve bag coming out. As a result the force acting on the shoulders and anchoring them so that you reamin vertical will continue to exist. It's just that the source will be different. Does this make sense to those who like to dwell over the dynamics of deployment. Just a thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERICCONNELLY 0 #14 December 2, 2002 Don't want to make this another RSL debate, just trying to add info... QuoteMy feeling is if he had an RSL he probably wouldn't have flipped from that stand up position Maybe, seems very plausible that it wouldn't take much drag to maintain a verticle position. Although I am not personally a RSL user, I have to say they do deploy so rapidly that even IF someone was starting to go over (in a flip) the freebag will probably already be out. At terminal (or even close) the departing mess goes away very quickly. Far faster than I can INTENTIONALLY do a back loop. (A personal observation from watching other jumpers cutaway and or lose gear at near terminal) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffles 0 #15 December 3, 2002 Thanks for the feedback gang. I was reading those fatality reports on skydivingfatalities.com and I guess if it was a significant and frequent problem, more people would be getting killed using RSLs. I only saw two RSL related fatalities in the last 8 years and those were even questionable (ie. may not have been related to the RSL). I think I'll keep using it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #16 December 3, 2002 Chop and pull and you should be fine. Investigate reserve problems as an extra measure and carry a hook knife. D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
