How to track 90 degree off jump run line?

[deaffreeflyer 0]

I had a few close calls - most of them were canopies coming staight to me really FAST! I don't want to be in this situation again for sure, you know how I felt like. I didn't had someone passed me very close when I am in under full canopy yet. I still don't want it happen to me. I want to try to avoid it as much as I can.

My problem is after break off, I track away from people I jumped with but I have no idea if I track in jump run line or away from it. So far, nothing close calls happened - I must have been lucky. I think it's waiting to happen to me. I found it difficult to know where direction of jump run line is. I don't have time to recognise where it is and track away 90 degree off from it. You know I can't afford to spare few sec to look around after the break off then track away. My dz's area are full of fields but I can recognise some roads, fields, pwer line etc but it'll take time to know where jump run is. It's difficult for me because my dz don't have tarmac / concrete runway. I tried to see my dz but it didn't help me much at all - it's all green, yellow and brown fields to me! I hope you'll give me some good tips/advices/recommends to solve my problem. I don't want to put myself and other in danger because it can be avoid.

[gus 1]

If you're in a group of three or more people then surely not everyone can track 90 degrees to the flight line. I think the answer here is to make sure you leave big enough gaps between groups and don't track more than you need to.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[quatorze 1]

The main point is to not track down jump run, either the way that the plane was flying when you exited nor aft of the craft at exit time, this will prevent you from tracking over and/or under other formations/skydivers. 90 degrees is a great idea for solos and 2 ways but anything more, just try and use ladnmarks as to which way Jump run is prior to exit and then try to fly as unparallel to it as safely possible

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I tried to see my dz but it didn't help me much at all - it's all green, yellow and brown fields to me! I hope you'll give me some good tips/advices/recommends to solve my problem."

One tip:-
You can use the sun as a reference point, just watch a couple of loads and set up your jump run/track direction reference from there...

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[bobsoutar 0]

[I tried to see my dz but it didn't help me much at all - it's all green, yellow and brown fields to me!]

What about the A1 and those nice power lines?

Check out the jump run on the ground before you go up and if there are only 2 of you freeflying you can decide on track direction before you jump. With a bigger group you will need to allow extra time before getting out because at least one of you is bound to be tracking away from the 90 degree ideal.

Try to do some spotting/jumpmastering - you will soon get to know the lie of the land.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

> You know I can't afford to spare few sec to look around
>after the break off then track away.

Looks like you should break off higher until you learn to spot the landmarks quicker. I haven't had trouble choosing a ~90/270 degrees direction after breakoff, and tracking for that direction.

[grega 0]

another advice is to look at the ground while still in plane and waiting, for enough horizontal separation after another group, to jump. and you can see your flight path - where you are going,and then jump. at breakoff altitude you should know where to turn withou thinking too hard. Looks like the flight path is written in your subconcence somehow at exit...
It helped me though, maybe it's worth a try.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[slotperfect 7]

We use a basic exit order at my DZ:

1) Freeflyers
2) Belly-Flyers, largest formation to smallest
3) High-pulling solo jumpers
4) AFF Students
5) Tandems

Groups always allow a 5-thousand count before climbing out after the group in front of them exits. This allows for a good 8 seconds separation.

A full Otter load can easily accommodate the above in two passes.

I always make sure I know what altitude the people directly in front of me will deploy at.

If everyone is conscious of the need for this exit order, teaches it to new jumpers who don't know it, and help the organizer to assemble it correctly, close calls can be prevented.

Arrive Safely

John

[Sonic 0]

you don't have freeflyers out after belly flyers?

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[quatorze 1]

Quote

1) Freeflyers
2) Belly-Flyers, largest formation to smallest
3) High-pulling solo jumpers
4) AFF Students
5) Tandems

I had a very experienced freeflyer (freakaliscious) and a doctor of phisics ( Dr. Jeff Wragg) explain how due to speed and drift direction the ffer's should get out after the RW guys any one got any back up for this?

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hey Quatorze, this was discussed to death here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=145990;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I recommend using Kallends simulator programme to model various scenarios...http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

I found his whole site quite useful when trying to get my head round some of this stuff...

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[bobsoutar 0]

Yes, provided that the plane is flying into wind. Belly fliers will drift further in freefall than freefliers so by getting out before them will increase the amount of separation (rather than reduce it which happens with the exit order reversed).

It is also a good idea to brief everyone to face their canopies in the same direction after deployment until all of the groups have opened.

[Sonic 0]

beat me to it. Was looking for it on the net - have it on my pc, but couldn't find the link.

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[PaulHitchman 0]

Quote

I had a very experienced freeflyer (freakaliscious) and a doctor of phisics ( Dr. Jeff Wragg) explain how due to speed and drift direction the ffer's should get out after the RW guys any one got any back up for this?

it's true that RW people drift, so it's possible to drift above the ff if you go after, but the ff fall faster up to a third faster. I'd rather go after them that have them at the same open altitude dropping around. I understood that head downs can track way quicker than any RW drift. If anyone else can put some light on this subject as it always seems a point of argument at some drop zones. Obviously the upper winds come into play. So is it higher upper winds RW people out first? I guess...

[vesatoro 0]

In my opinion belly flyers go out first unless there is skysurfers in the load, then ffer's. Both exit on biggest groups first basis. Here you can read a good explanation why this is the preferred exit order:
http://www.skydiveaz.com/Exit_Order.htm

so:
1) Skysurfers
2) Belly-flyers (largest to smallest group)
3) Freeflyers (largest to smallest group)
4) High-pulling solo jumpers (or after AFF's and tandems, depending on the opening altitude)
5) AFF Students
6) Tandems
7) Wingsuit flyers (who should always be aware of those open higer)

?) spaceball groups
?) CF jumpers
these groups have to be taken into consideration as separate cases, depending on their special exit preferences.

This is the recommended rule when the jumprun is against the wind. When the jumprun direction is some other, the before mentioned order doesn't necessarily apply.

Vesa
SA
BMI

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[RichM 0]

Quote

Quote

I had a very experienced freeflyer (freakaliscious) and a doctor of phisics ( Dr. Jeff Wragg) explain how due to speed and drift direction the ffer's should get out after the RW guys any one got any back up for this?

it's true that RW people drift, so it's possible to drift above the ff if you go after, but the ff fall faster up to a third faster. I'd rather go after them that have them at the same open altitude dropping around. I understood that head downs can track way quicker than any RW drift. If anyone else can put some light on this subject as it always seems a point of argument at some drop zones. Obviously the upper winds come into play. So is it higher upper winds RW people out first? I guess...

I think Kallend recently wrote that you can exit in any order you like as long as the seperation is there. His website demonstrates that there should be 300ft (I think, I can't find the URL at the moment) of horizontal seperation at opening height. If the upper winds are known then the run in and exit delay can be adjusted to ensure safe horizontal seperation at opening height. Similarly you can safeky track up jump run as long as the exit delay is adjusted to suit. It's unlikely that an 8 way or bigger at breakoff won't have at least one person tracking up jump run.

Brian Burke wrote a paper on the RW/FF exit order issue, available at Skydiveaz.com http://www.skydiveaz.com/resources/Exit_Order.htm.

Rich M

[Sonic 0]

run the simulator and find out - using the alti's at my dz, if ff'ers were out first, the rw group would open at the same point, unless they gave about a 20 second delay in the door.

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[bobsoutar 0]

[I'd rather go after them that have them at the same open altitude dropping around.]

And they are happy with you drifting over them and opening up!

Freeflyers are taught to face 90 degrees to the run in throughout the dive so that if they backslide, track or whatever they will not gain horizontally on the other groups.

[billvon 3,031]

>We use a basic exit order at my DZ:
>
>1) Freeflyers
>2) Belly-Flyers, largest formation to smallest
>3) High-pulling solo jumpers
>4) AFF Students
>5) Tandems

We used that for a little while until we had some close calls. Then we switched to the Skydive Arizona exit order (they've had some experience with freeflyers vs belly flyers) and have had no problems since. Theirs is, basically:

-skysurfers
-belly
-freeflyers
-high pullers
-students

[riggerrob 643]

Back to the original question.
The best way to know which way to track at break off time is to pre-spot.
Pre-spotting involves keeping your eyes outside the plane for the last couple of minutes before exit. Chose a landmark to the left of jump run and another landmark to the right of jumprun. At break off time, track towards one of those landmarks. After opening, take a quick look at your canopy, then riser steer towards your favorite landmark. That will carry your canopy even farther from jumprun, further reducing the chances of collision.
Oh, and look over your shoulder during rear riser turns.

[TheMonkey 0]

Quote

-skysurfers
-belly
-freeflyers
-high pullers
-students

this simulator is based on kallend's, but it is dumbed-down for smrt people like me!....i mean smart!

http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

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Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[kallend 2,067]

Quote

Quote

I had a very experienced freeflyer (freakaliscious) and a doctor of phisics ( Dr. Jeff Wragg) explain how due to speed and drift direction the ffer's should get out after the RW guys any one got any back up for this?

it's true that RW people drift, so it's possible to drift above the ff if you go after, but the ff fall faster up to a third faster. I'd rather go after them that have them at the same open altitude dropping around. I understood that head downs can track way quicker than any RW drift. \.

But can they track faster than the belly fliers can track? In my experience, the average belly flier can usually outtrack the average freeflier (there are exceptions, of course, Olav and Rook can outtrack most people).

[kallend 2,067]

Quote

[I'd rather go after them that have them at the same open altitude dropping around.]

And they are happy with you drifting over them and opening up!

Freeflyers are taught to face 90 degrees to the run in throughout the dive so that if they backslide, track or whatever they will not gain horizontally on the other groups.

How does that work in a freefly big-way?

[Sonic 0]

If you're in a big way, you should have the skills to fall straight down and not have any horizontal movement anyway.

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[kallend 2,067]

Quote

I think Kallend recently wrote that you can exit in any order you like as long as the seperation is there. .

This assumes that everyone is heads up enough to know the right exit separation. Putting belly fliers out first generally is less prone to cause a problem if people make an error in exit spacing (I won't go so far as to say it's idiot proof, 'cos we all know how ingenious idiots can be).

But yes, any exit order can be made to work. Some just make more sense than others in getting everyone under canopy with good separation, while allowing an unhurried climb-out, and a decent spot.