Brake line tied in knot

[Derekbox 0]

Background:
was on a 4 way FF, tracked off, someone was right above me.... so i kept tracking a lil more, waited till i was clear but pulled a lil lower than normal (was passing through about 3k when i pulled) - uneventful opening - did a riser turn towards the airport, stowed my slider, then went to pop my brakes. one did, one didn't. right toggle was in a knot. went into a slow spiral. immediately compensated with left toggle. i tried untieing it messed with it, tension from canopy kept it tight. next instinct was to cut the line... no hook knife (lost off rig in store). i looked at the alti, 1500, decision time, i checked the canopy - she was ok. i felt i could fly her in, and didn't think i needed to chop it. so i wrapped about 4 wraps of toggle line around my left hand to compensate for the right line, flew risers, flew my pattern and landed with risers in the main landing area. no wind landing on a 1.2 loaded Sabre 2 (loaded enough where a flareless landing is going to really mess me up) but i stood it up (phew).

Investigation:
initial look confirmed what i saw in the air, some how, steering line had been passed THROUGH the riser (at the top of the risers where the slinks or metal ring attaches the suspension lines to the riser) and knotted. On the ground when the knot was untied, the toggle was passed through the hole ONCE. (a master rigger was checking it out, he untied it)

Recreation:
We found one viable "accidental" scenario. after being properly stowed, the slack is someone passed through the suspension line hole, then the toggle may be passed through that loop and create a very similar knot. BUT 1) I stowed my brakes, and I put the slack in the keepers where they are supposed to go 2) there is practically NO WAY the line could have "accidently" gone through that hole (and then gone through with enough slack for the toggle to go though) try doing it, is a pain to intentionally do it 3) when clearing that knot (the simulated accidental knot), it is cleared WITHOUT a toggle passing through the hole, and IF the toggle IS passed through, it has to be passed back through AGAIN before it is completely cleared. So the toggle is passed through either 0 times or twice.

BUT if the toggle is (deviously and intentional) taken through the hole (entirely passed through it), tied in an overhand knot and then restowed, it has to be cleared by undoing the knot and passing the toggle back through ONCE. So I am led to believe somehow that knot was introduced intentionally.

Point is, it could have been an accident, maybe not. The consensus is that it WAS NOT an accident. i would like to think it was a screw up on my part, but I stowed the brakes, it was packed by a someone I trust 100%, but was sitting in the hanger long enough for someone to do it.

Now in hindsight, I shouldve been open a few hundred feet higher, that was a mistake on my part. I was in the seat by Id say 1900. But please ppl, double check your gear carefully, don't leave it laying around, and be safe.

If any of you have any ideas how this could have been created accidently (or otherwise) please let me know. Other than that, be safe ppl.

Thanks Derek

[ernokaikkonen 0]

So just to get this straight, was the situation similar to the attachment?

[Derekbox 0]

Yes, like that.

Either, an entire toggle was passed through there, or a bite of line passed through there. But there was line passing through there that knotted up and it appears it wasnt accidental.

I dont want to create hysteria, it is technically possible that it was an error or accident, and if so I hope we figure that out quickly and this is all dismissed as such. But it just doesnt add up, and there are other SUPPORTING details I intentionally failed to mention because it isnt my place to do so which also support this.

just everyone be careful. Double check your gear (actually give it GOOD lookovers), have fun and be safe. Ill be out jumping again tommorow, just after a throrough gear check D

[councilman24 37]

Could the packer have restowed the line? If you have velroless toggles, but have the keeper that you have to stuff line into, it may have come out. The packer then may have used the method some I've seen some people use. They route the slack throught the link attachment, and purposely "lock" it down with the toggle. I think its the Vector III vecroless that have the loops to stow the line. If it came out after you stowed them, the packer may not have known how to use them, or found them a pain to use and stowed the line the way I described. With the slack stowed this way I believe its easier to have things knot up.

Unless you're a real jerk I think it probably was an accident. There are other things (and faster things) someone could do to screw with your rig. Knoted toggles and steering lines aren't particularly rare and probably are still one weak point in the gear. That's why manufacturers are still changing toggle and line stowing systems.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Rdutch 0]

I would be very careful with this Derek. Acusations like this are extremely serious. If there was someone out there that malicious, to place you into a potentially fatal situation, then this should be looked into with great debth. Chances are this was a packing error (Hopefully). You should check everything out before you post to the world that someone tried to kill you! It wouldnt be the first time someone pulled a toggle through the excess, and had a loop knot in their steering line. I wasn't at the Dz when it happened, but I know your rig, were the line's stowed in the holder's, behind the riser's, or just hanging loose?
Once again I would be careful before you start making serious accusation's of this nature. If someone did do that, it is very serious situation. This is a potential legal matter.

Ray

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[sunshine 2]

I've had a steering line tied in a knot before. It was while i was renting student gear. Whoever packed it had no idea who would be jumping it so it was definatley an accident. I don't think anyone would purposely tie a knot in a steering line.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[grega 0]

Neither do i.Why would they do that ??? if someone was trying to kill him, there are hundreds of easier ways to do so. I think it was just an accident. We all must be very carful and inspect our own gear before the jump.

And i think that packing your gear by yourself is best way of avoiding accidents like that, and you get to know your canopy (opening) much better that way (unless of course it's rental gear)

"George just lucky i guess!"

[AggieDave 6]

I'm a really good packer and I've had a toggle come loose and knot its self in a tension knot before. I was able to clear it, but it took about 10 seconds of work under canopy (luckily I had pulled high, or I may have chopped it).

Although it sucks it happened, but it happens, trust me. I wouldn't go accusing the packer of doing it on purpose, though.

I'm a packer, if someone accused me of something like that on purpose, well, them be fight'n words.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Spy38W 0]

Quote

I'm a packer, if someone accused me of something like that on purpose, well, them be fight'n words.

If somebody accused me of that, I would tell them it was from bad body position... It's the packer's way.

--
Hook high, flare on time

[Derekbox 0]

I stowed the brakes, but it was packed by a packer (whom I trust). I stowed them just as he was starting to pack too... he said he didnt restow any lines, he just packed it... I believe him and know that he didnt do that. Also he would have properly stowed the lines, not sending it through the loop.

As far as accusations, I am not pointing fingers, and I have no idea who did or would do such I thing, I trust nearly everyone I know on the DZ. But things of this nature have happened before, and it would be prudent to just keep an extra careful eye out. hopefully it is just a screw up on my part.

As far as a tension not, it was not. I will post a picture shortly if I can get some. Once you see it, it is pretty obvious of the severe unlikelyness that it was a tension not or other common stowing/lock issue. Either a toggle or enough steering line passed through the hole where it could be knotted around the toggle. If you wanted to make line go through there it is semi difficult. As far as a toggle passing through there...

Anyways, all is well that ends well. Im safe, everyone else is safe, no cut aways, no damage to rig so life goes on. When I get to the DZ later today I will be jumping. ill just be watching my rig extra closely from now on...

D

[billvon 2,998]

>Once you see it, it is pretty obvious of the severe unlikelyness that
>it was a tension not or other common stowing/lock issue.

I've seen some truly bizarre things happen in the wind. Overhand knots, lark's head knots around things, a PC that fit through a hole in a canopy seemingly smaller than the PC . . .

[Cajones 0]

Ditto. I've seen some strange things happen. Canopy openings are a strange chaos. Carrying your canopy over your shoulder, with the toggles dangling, lines running this way and that... Stranger things have happened.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[Derekbox 0]

Well I cant edit the origional post... so I will reiterate it with a bit more tack.

The likelyhood that some one maliciously tampered with my rig is slim to none. But the possibility does exist. It is definitaly more likely an error (probably on my part). I dont want to burn bridges here but it is likely to late. I AM NOT pointing fingers, at anyone or the DZ. I still feel safe there and trust everone I know there. I am ready to chalk this all up as a small mistake that turned into a mal.

BUT the fact remains there is a slight possibility my a rig was tampered with (however slim) and if that exsits people have the right to have a heads up. Now just to be on the safe side everone should be a little more aware and extra safe and not worry.

For those whose toes I stepped on and those I angered by my actions, I am sorry, that was not my intention, but I do not believe I made a mistake in coming out with this information, I just put in a way that came off sounding more malicious than it should have.

Thanks for your time, Derek

[freefalle 0]

Yea your right Derek, the likelyhood of someone screwing with your rig is slim. Some people out at the DZ may not like you for whatever reason but nobody wants to see you put in a situation where you could be hurt or killed, at leat nobody I know of. Ive screwed up a time or two and ended up with a knot someplace I shouldnt have had one, fortunately I or a packer caught my screw up before it became a problem. In your post you eluded to the fact that this is not the first time this has happened. If that is the case, the next time your rig has a problem during your skydive, if you dont end up in a helo or a meat wagon this is what I would suggest. Because you feel this is an on going problem and you feel that someone may be tampering with your rig; when you land take your rig to a semi-secure area Bobs office might be nice, then call Deland PD and advise them of the situation have them come out examine the rig via the assistance of a rigger, get a statement from the rigger as to their findings and have the officer complete a Police Information report. The next thing you may want to do is go to the drop zone section of this web site and look for a new DZ to frequent. Your accusations are serious, inflamatory and unnecessary, by making them you are accusing someone of attempted homicide. If someone intentionally tampers with your rig in a manner that causes serious bodily injury or death that is what the state attorneys office is going to charge them with. I certainly hope you can reach some type of resolve in this matter before the boogie-man get you.

[billvon 2,998]

>Your accusations are serious, inflamatory and unnecessary, by making them
> you are accusing someone of attempted homicide.

He did not accuse anyone of anything. He said there _may_ have been tampering involved, but it was unlikely.

>If someone intentionally tampers with your rig in a manner that causes
>serious bodily injury or death that is what the state attorneys office is
>going to charge them with.

Hard to charge anyone with something that didn't happen.