Strangled on opening

[riddler 0]

Casa boogie in Brush, CO! Casa's are SOOO nice. Anyway, on my last jump, I had the hardest opening I've ever had by far. Turned out to be a broken steering line - spin - cutaway - land way off - usual story. Same thing that happened to Luna.

What bothers me is that I got strangled by the chest-strap on opening. I have strap-burn from my left ear to my right - looks like I tried to hang myself recently - and my voice is pretty fucked-up, but getting better.

I got this rig a few months ago - Vector 2, j8 - DOM 1988. When it opens hard (about 5-10% of the time), I usually get the chest strap hitting my chin or throat, but I never thought much about it until today. So I'm wondering if the container is just a bad fit. It was made for someone 6'1" and 185 lbs - I'm 6'0" 160 lbs. Canopy is a triathalon 190.

I noticed I have pretty good scrapes just above my hip bones this morning, so I'm guessing the leg straps loosened on the hard open. Also, I've gotten in the habit of tightening the chest strap more than normal to keep the shoulder straps on my arms for those windy King-Air climbouts - this seems to make the choking effect worse. I think I'll stop doing that

My rigger is going to put extra webbing on the leg straps to keep them from sliding as much. I do check the legs straps before every jump to make sure they don't loosen with downward pressure.

Anyone else have this problem? Should I get a new container? Anyone have a new container that they would recommend? And where is the ideal position of the chest strap on your chest? Mine is about an inch closer to my clavicle (top of sternum) than my xiphoid (bottom of sternum) - a little higher than I would like. Would it be difficult or even advisable to lower this?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[weid14 0]

since you bought a used container, you'll have issues with the fit, but it sounds like the chest strap is riding high on you (around the center of the chest on a guy is pretty good) you're an inch shorter, and weigh less (assuming the container was made for the other guy), which probably means the harness is a little big for you. moving the chest strap will require re-doing the harness, might as well get it re-sized, spend that kind of $$, might as well get a new one. A Tri is not know for whamo openings, any thoughts as to why? line trim? packing errors? dumping in a track?

[lazide 0]

Sounds like a bad/dangerous fit to me. On my rig (which fits quite nicely, and quite comfortable), the chest strap is right around nipple level, bit below (male) when I am standing. Under canopy it doesn't shift more than 3-4 inches up.

Sounds like your rig was cut for andre the giant.

(edited to fix location - doh! ;p)

---
'Damn, I sure wish I would of kept that pretty silver handle' - cutaway ruminations

[RTB 0]

I wouldn't jump the rig if there was the slightest risk of that happening again.
Not to long ago a jumper in Sweden was hanging lifeless under canopy and from what I heard the probable cause of death was what happened to you. His neck had suffered severe trauma.(from underneath the chin)

René

[billbooth 10]

First you have to determine what your problem is. 1. Is the harness the wrong size? or 2. Is your leg hardware slipping?

SIZE...Height alone does not determine harness size. Torso length, not leg length is what counts. So two people who are the same height, and weight, might need different main lift web lengths, because one had long legs and a short torso, while the other had short legs and a long torso. Any master rigger can resize your harness. At Relative Workshop we charge $100 for the service, unless of course you bought the harness from us...then it's free. Hanging in a suspended harness will make it obvious if your harness is properly sized.

SLIPPING HARDWARE...Slipping leg hardware could cause your problem even if the harness was the right size for your particular body. A master rigger can also fix this problem. It will cost a little more than $100 because new hardware must be installed. As webbing gets old and dirty, it tends to slip more than when new. Again, if Relative Workshop sells a rig with "slippery" hardware, we replace it for free. If your hardware is indeed slipping, the person who sold it to you should have known about the problem, and should help you get it fixed.

To determine if your hardware is slipping, mark the webbing just below each piece of leg hardware with taylors chalk or a grease pen just before you jump, and see where the marks are right after opening. Webbing can slip while you are moving around in the airplane, while in freefall, or during opeing shock. It doesn't matter where it slips, and a live test covers all three phases of the jump.

You can often get some TEMPORARY relief from slipping hardware by using two, tight , widely spaced keepers on you leg straps.

[billvon 2,991]

>Anyone else have this problem? Should I get a new container?

A few notes.

First, if your chest strap is either too tight or you're in danger of having the riser covers "slip over your shoulders" - there's a problem with rig fit. You may be OK for a while, but I'd strongly recommend you get with a rigger, or gear retailer, or someone else who can evaluate the fit of the rig for both safety and comfort.

Second, you can have problems even if the legstraps are tight if the rig doesn't fit well. Rig geometry is important in maintaining a good fit.

Third, scrapes _above_ your hipbones? (I assume you mean the iliac crest, the bone that sticks out of your side.) If that's the case, the rig may actually be too _small_ for you. The legstrap junction should ride right around your iliac crest; if it's much higher than that, your pelvis can slide down a bit as you start to "sit" in the harness, and that might cause that kind of scraping. This would also cause the cheststrap to ride up. To see if this is the cause, sit up straighter in the harness on your next opening (i.e. don't let it "sit" you) and see if the cheststrap is lower.

[riddler 0]

Thanks for the advice. Answers to questions - no I wasn't in a track - I had just finished practicing my stand, then gone to belly at 5,000, then pull at 3,500. I did do a barrel roll after 5,000 (I always do this to check for jumpers above me), but I was stable again by 3,500. Line dump is certainly a possibility, as I remember that there was an extra few inches of line between the last stow and the risers than I usually have. Is it possible the steering line got caught on something and broke, causing the hard opening? Or is the broken line the result of the hard opening? Chest strap is a about an inch and a half above nipple level - I would prefer it to be right at. I just emailed the guy that sold it to me and he said that's never happened to him. My tri has always treated me pretty well - even the hard dumps are not normally that hard. I will start marking the leg straps and checking - I suspect that is the culprit, but my rigger is going to add a few inches of webbing to the straps to help limit this. The container is pretty old - 14 years, so I think if I can prove that the leg straps are slipping, I'll replace the hardware there. Can anyone give me an idea of what acceptable slippage is? 1/4 inch? None?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[billbooth 10]

Unfortunately, there is no widely accepted standard for "allowable slippage". At the Relative Workshop, we have adopted a "no slippage below 600 lbs." policy for incoming hardware, in the pull test machine, with a slowly applied load. But we don't test every friction adapter with every possible color and finish of webbing. And remember, some hardware also slips when you're moving around in the airplane, and when you're in freefall. This we can't test on the ground, although I'm sure it must be related. Two tight keepers are the best protection I know of against this kind of slippage. And remember, It's not just the hardware. Old or dirty (especially sandy) webbing can be a problem.

[franck102 0]

Climbing harnesses use the same kind of hardware, and on all of them you have to pass the webbing one more time in the hardware (on a leg strap you would turn back and upward) to prevent slippage.
Did any manufacturer consider using the hardware that way?
Franck

[billbooth 10]

If you pass the webbing back through the hardware, and then snag the dead end, you will totally release that side, and fall out of your harness. Don't do it.

[jumpy 0]

but climbing harnesses aren't loaded as high and as quickly...i suspect that a similar arrangement would put to much strain on the buckle itself...

[franck102 0]

Quote

but climbing harnesses aren't loaded as high and as quickly...i suspect that a similar arrangement would put to much strain on the buckle itself...

I absolutely do not suggest that anyone try this at home of course.
But I would guess that climbing harnesses do receive at least the same loads - people don't just hang in them, they sometimes fall quite a distance before being stopped by the rope. You don't get near terminal velocity, but you get stopped much more quickly - quickly enough to get killed by the shock.
The buckles are different, they don't have any moving part. They would be much more of a pain to tighten or loosen though.
Franck

[billvon 2,991]

>But I would guess that climbing harnesses do receive at least the
> same loads - people don't just hang in them . . .

Well, some of us do. During gym climbing, my harness takes load in almost the same manner as a skydiving harness - I hang for a while, fall sometimes (and shock load it) and just have it hang on me for a while. When I lead, you're right - I almost never hang.

>You don't get near terminal velocity, but you get stopped much more
>quickly - quickly enough to get killed by the shock.

Hence the use of dynamic rope.

>The buckles are different, they don't have any moving part. They
> would be much more of a pain to tighten or loosen though.

The new SP888 hardware actually looks amazingly like the hardware on climbing harnesses. I use a harness that never loads the buckle, but most other harnesses do.

[jumpy 0]

> people don't just hang in them . . .
True but falling maybe 10-20 meters at the most while lead climbing i don't think would put alot of strain on the leg strap buckles themselves.

>The new SP888 hardware actually looks amazingly like
>the hardware on climbing harnesses. I use a harness
>that never loads the buckle, but most other harnesses
>do


Could we please get a pic or some more info on this bill to explain how this works?

I also had another thought...a rockclimbing harness is 'sat' in...like there is an invisable seat below you. Your legs go out infront of you where as with skydiving harness' you are staight up and down...not sure if this has an effect at all but it may...

[billvon 2,991]

>True but falling maybe 10-20 meters at the most while lead climbing
> i don't think would put alot of strain on the leg strap buckles
> themselves.

All depends on fall factor. For more info on shock loading and fall factor check out http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=GDEPAROI# - go to the 'shock load' section under technical advice.

In any case, a fall on a static rope or anchor point can cause very high shock loads, similar to a hard opening. Total deceleration _usually_ does not approach that of a skydive, but total deceleration is not what stresses the harness.

>Could we please get a pic or some more info on this bill to explain
> how this works?

The SP888 is a two-part buckle, similar to one of the REI cheapo harness buckles. I can't find a picture of the REI harness buckle, but you can see the SP888 at http://www.miragesys.com/news.html

>I also had another thought...a rockclimbing harness is 'sat' in...like
> there is an invisable seat below you. Your legs go out infront of you
> where as with skydiving harness' you are staight up and down...not
>sure if this has an effect at all but it may...

In a correctly fitted harness, your body should be nearly (but not quite) vertical. The loads are pretty similar I think. For more info on how you end up sitting in the harness check out http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/harnesses.htm. For more info on some of the many, many climbing (and other ropework) harnesses check out http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=HARN#AQUILA

[Macaulay 0]

Put the chest strap *UNDER* your arms. UNDER.

- Mac

[riddler 0]

Just a follow-up. My rigger made some mods when he was fixing my steering line and repacking my reserve. One thing is that he replaced the cutaway pillow with a loop. It is really cool - I was always grabbing part of my shirt or jumpsuit along with the pillow, and now I don't do that. And I can also stick a thumb through the loop to help facilitate the cutaway.

The more important thing that he did was sew some extra material on the legstraps. The extra material makes the legstraps thicker so that it is less likely that the straps will slip through the hardware. I tried it out at the balloon fiesta boogie this weekend and paid close attention to where my chest-strap was on opening. It didn't budge.

I encourage everyone that has an older container to pay attention to how much your chest strap moves when you open and when you are on the plane. If it moves up or hits your chin or neck on opening, have your rigger take a look at it - the modification only cost me $10 and I feel a lot safer in the container.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD