Lineover malfunction fixed during flight

[petur 0]

Ok, this might sound ridiculous, but what appeared to be a lineover was apparently fixed last saturday. We had a first time static-line student exit a C-206 from 4.000'.

From the ground it was ovious that the right side of the canopy was deformed and the canopy began to spin immediately after deployment. The jumper himself saw what appeared to be a lineover.

In spite of direct radio-commands to cut away and deploy the reserve, the student decided to pull the toggles a couple of times to full brakes which resulted in the line gently slipping over the right edge and the problem was fixed, uneventful flight and landing after that. The student was flying a 280 PD 9-cell.

Has anyone else ever heard of a lineover fixed during flight?

---
P.
"It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes -
But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second."

[jdhill 0]

Line overs are often cleared by using this method, and is taught as the first thing to try (at least when I went through FJC)... If you do clear one this way, you should be sure to check the canopy for damage (line burns on the top skin).

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[PhreeZone 20]

Yeah.. they happen to clear themselfs every so often. Its usually on the bigger, lightly loaded ones they seem to clear. Don't try to clear it unless you have plenty of altitude, are watching the altimeter closely and are not rapidly spinning out of control.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jessefs 0]

In the AFP I am going through, they say to cut away immediately, without trying to clear it....maybe that is just tell newbies until they get advanced? crap...the letter after "h" on my keyboard stopped workng.

Would lke to hear more on the tryng to clear the lne over or not though.

(Anyone know a good way to clean a keyboard??)
jesse

<* Spread the Love! *>

[Kirils 1]

We used to call them a "Mae West". I don't recall ever hearing instructing a student just to chop without a least 1 full riser pump to attempt to resolve the line over.

I've seen and had a number of chops over the years.
Is there less emphasis in todays student instruction to "resolve problems" and to just chop immediatly with the occurance of anyhing out of the ordinary?

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[fudd 0]

I had a lineover once. Watched the canopy open and saw a lineover at the left side. I believe it was over the second cell from the edge. My first reaction was "Shit, this is going to be a reserve ride..." I saw it. Looked at my alti, showing 2200', decided to try to pump the brakes once or twice before cutting away. Didn't even have time to release my brakes when the line gently slid over and I had a perfectly good canopy over my head. If I hadn't watched the whole canopy opening process, I would never have noticed.
Whole process from seeing it until it was clear was maybe two seconds.
I hadn't done anything different when I packed, so I'm not sure of the cause. However I believe I had developed a bad habbit of pulling the tail to violent when closing the packjob (propack) so that I might have pulled some of the lines out of place. I'm more careful with the tail now.
Maybe this should be moved to the safety and training forum?

[petur 0]

Quote

Is there less emphasis in todays student instruction to "resolve problems" and to just chop immediatly with the occurance of anyhing out of the ordinary?

Well, from what I've seen and heard, I think the general rule of thumb is to chop immediately if a lineover occurrs. My first post to this thread clearly shows that giving it at least 1 try to resolve is worth it. My student training in the U.S., February last year ('01), did not include anything on fixing lineovers, simply cut it away immediately and go for the silver.

---
P.
"It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes -
But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second."

[fudd 0]

At my AFF ground training I was thaught that a lineover was a mal that we should cut away on, even though it might seem to fly you might get a suprise when the ground is comming a bit fast and it just doesn't flare well. Even though a lineover can be cleared it's much better to cutaway one to much than one to little. I'd rather pay for a repack than spending time at the ER.
I was a bit suprised at first when I learned about emergency procedures. Something I believed was complicated and difficult was just simple.
If you are unsure, you are sure. Cut away!
--- no handles left and still at terminal, look for a soft spot! ---

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

My student training in the U.S., February last year ('01), did not include anything on fixing lineovers, simply cut it away immediately and go for the silver.

That is, in my opinion, a poor choice. Given that your reserve isn't exactly guaranteed to open it is my belief that you should at least attempt to fix a problem before cutting away what might to out to be a perfectly functioning main. I've had several opportunities to cutaway what looked at first glance to be an unrecoverable malfunction, but because I've been aware of my surroundings (time, altitude, and air traffic) I've been able to fix all but one. If I cutaway every one of these issues I would damn near have an A license in reserve rides.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[clrarch 0]

With a line over malfuncation, I was taught in my AFF Level 1 to do the following:
1. Check your altitude to see if you have time to try to correct the problem. If you're too low, don't mess around--go for your reserve.
2. If you're high enough, do a smooth and steady flare to see if the lines slide over the edge of the canopy and back into their proper place. If they do correct, check the canopy for damage.
3. If it doesn't work the first time, check your altitude again and if you have time to try to flare again. No go? Pull the silver handle.
The general rule of thumb was try once, try twice (ONLY if you have malfuction you can try to correct and only if you have the altitude to work with) and then move on.
I've never had a lineover malfunction, and have wondered about the emergency procedures in this situation----if you're spinning you're going to be losing altitude quickly---how much time should you spend trying to correct a lineover???

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

No go? Pull the silver handle.

Just be sure to pull the cutaway first.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhreeZone 20]

Jimbo... sounds like you need a new packer

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

There are two sides in everything...

Option 1: Try to clear the mal.
Pros: It might open, and then there's no need to use the reserve.
Cons: A student may not be aware enough of the time passing, and might spend the rest of his life trying to clear a mal that's not clearable.

Option 2: Cut away. If you're not sure, cut away.
Pros: Only one set of emergency procedures. Easier for the students to learn, and thus less chance of an improper response in an emergency situation.
Cons: The reserve might not open.

IMO, option no2 is better.

Erno

[Keith 0]

Yep, I had a line over that I cleared the same way once.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Option 1: Try to clear the mal.
Pros: It might open, and then there's no need to use the reserve.
Cons: A student may not be aware enough of the time passing, and might spend the rest of his life trying to clear a mal that's not clearable.

Darwin at work. Some people weren't meant to skydive, sometimes they learn the hard way.

Quote

Option 2: Cut away. If you're not sure, cut away.
Pros: Only one set of emergency procedures. Easier for the students to learn, and thus less chance of an improper response in an emergency situation.
Cons: The reserve might not open.

I submit that it's not a real emergency until you've proven to yourself that the canopy is not landable. Going for the reserve without even trying to fix a problem with the main? I don't get it.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[diver123 0]

"I've had several opportunities to cutaway what looked at first glance to be an unrecoverable malfunction,"
What exactly where these several unrecoverable malfunctions?

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[Jimbo 0]

First, I didn't say that they were unrecoverable, obviously most were not. I said that they appeared at first glance to be unrecoverable. The distinction is important.

Anyhow -
* several severe line twists
* a spinning malfunction that had me on my back in the beginning.
* 3 stuck toggles, I cut away from one.
* a brake fire that had me confused and disoriented.

I should have cutaway from one of the line twists, I didn't kick out until about 800 ft. I haven't made that mistake since then. I solved the spinning malfunction by evening out the risers and kicking out of the resulting twists. Two of the stuck toggles I was able to fix with a little work. The brake fire, well, that's easy, release the other brake.

You may laugh or think that these are minor issues, I certainly don't consider any of them to major issues, but it takes two hands to count the number of times I've seen people cutaway what could have been perfectly functioning canopies. I'll try and fix my shit before I cutaway, I believe others should too.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jiggs 0]

I have seen a two video's of linoevers coming out, it was pretty amazing since it was from a BASE jump. The original video was pretty funny because you can hear the comments of the camera-man!

However its pretty rare and not something I would count on happening, when in doubt go the reserve.

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[ifallout 0]

In my fjc they said to try and fix it just like that.

Good job, well except for not following the dircet command of the jump master..

alls well that ends well i guess.

Bill

have fun, love life, be nice to the humans

[wonko 0]

Quote

Has anyone else ever heard of a lineover fixed during flight?

Yep, I got one on my spectre170 (wl=1.36) and it was cleared by deep toggle input of the same side. It just liked to happen this way.

villem
life is what you make it to be
http://www.youtube.com/villu357
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skybound

[annakah 0]

I had my AFF ground school 7 months ago, and have since had 130 jumps. I was taught the distiction between the different types of malfunctions before I made my first jump. HOWEVER, there are many things the first time jumper needs to remember and the instructors should try to keep it as simple as possible: cut away and pull your reserve without hesitation. The ONLY exception to this is a couple twists in your lines. If there's anything wrong with your canopy itself, (including line overs) go for your handles. Once you're done with your training and are applying for your A license, there's a few more things you need to go over with your instructor. This is an ideal time for them to clarify some of the times when you might want to clear a mal before going for your handles. After 20 jumps, you have gained a lot of hands on experience since your initial ground training. For instance, you can look at 100 pictures of an inflated canopy from below, but until you are there in the sky with it above your head, you don't know what it's like. Imagine a first time jump student, opening at 5500 and having a lineover, resulting in some spinning and then a couple line twists. He thinks, "well, I'm supposed to clear these twists, let me work on that... I don't start my landing pattern until 1000'. so I have time...." so he works on the line twists, then tries to fix the lineover, etc.. this all goes by as he's losing altitude.... We're not just talking about Darwinism here, Jimbo, this is keeping it as simple as possible for the AFF/AFP students. 99% of people will get a little wigged out their first jump. Once you get more experienced, obviously you can try to clear whatever you want at a high altitude.
Sorry for rambling on here, but my point is, things should be kept as SIMPLE as possible for at least the first 10 jumps.

[freeflir29 0]

Hmmm.....As has been pointed out, line overs can be fixed in flight. However, if I have one I'm going to cut away immediately. Why? Easy....#1 If I have a line over my Stilletto will most likely spin like crazy. #2 I paid $900 for my Stilletto. Even if it isn't spinning I don't want to ruin it with line burns.

Just my .02C

[jerm 0]

Quote

Even if it isn't spinning I don't want to ruin it with line burns.

chances are you'd already have line burns...

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[MarkM 0]

Quote

That is, in my opinion, a poor choice. Given that your reserve isn't exactly guaranteed to open it is my belief that you should at least attempt to fix a problem before cutting away what might to out to be a perfectly functioning main. I've had several opportunities to cutaway what looked at first glance to be an unrecoverable malfunction, but because I've been aware of my surroundings (time, altitude, and air traffic) I've been able to fix all but one. If I cutaway every one of these issues I would damn near have an A license in reserve rides.

I think if you look at the stats students usually die due to either:

1> Not making a decision.
2> Making a very wrong decision.

So I think many instructors try to keep the emergency instructions down to basics. Yes the reserve may not work, but that possibility is probably far less than having a student just sit under a bad main until impact.

Maybe that type of person doesn't belong in the sport in the first place, but unfortunately you can't tell that by looking at them and they end up in those situations anyway.

[SkyMissy 0]

Jim, from your attitude about how students should handle malfunctions, I had to assume you were not a JM or I. Checking your profile, I was relieved to see that I was right. I am not bashing you at all, but would submit that with this attitude:(from your profile)

Quote

Number of Jumps: Does it matter?

that it DOES matter when students are asking for good advice, and that you may want to make your experience known to them before they go against what their instructors taught them.

Blue Skies!

________________________________________________
Mike