AFF Pull Signal

[Hooknswoop 19]

I ran across a DZ that uses a closed fist for the pull sign for AFF training. I was going to get an explanation as to the reason behind it, but never did. I figure it gets a better response than a pointed finger (the student always looks in the direction you are pointing) and the student can associate the fist w/ a handle.

Any thoughts on using a fist for the pull sign?

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

Do you think that an instructor may accidently close his/her's hand during a skydive and have the student mistake it for a pull signal?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Do you think that an instructor may accidently close his/her's hand during a skydive and have the student mistake it for a pull signal?

Good question. Probably have the same chance of the Instructor accidentally pointing out the DZ or the direction to track w/ a finger instead of the whole hand. That also brings up how well would a student recognize and understand the signal.

Hook

[JohnnyD 0]

Seems like it would be very easy to confuse with the legs signal or the altimeter signal.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Seems like it would be very easy to confuse with the legs signal or the altimeter signal.

I would think that it would easier to confuse "legs out" w/ the one finger pull signal (one finger vs. two fingers). I use a tap to thier altimeter or look at my altitmeter to get the student to check altitude.

Hook

[PhreeZone 20]

Its going to be a pain on the student if they move DZ's and the AFF-i's don't explain the difference in hand signals (bad form on the aff-i's for not checking.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[seedy 0]

At the DZ where I am a student, the closed fist is for a PRCP.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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At the DZ where I am a student, the closed fist is for a PRCP.

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Its going to be a pain on the student if they move DZ's and the AFF-i's don't explain the difference in hand signals (bad form on the aff-i's for not checking.

Seems like we already have that problem.

Hook

[rgoper 0]

in the U.S.P.A. coach's course the "pull signal" is to stick out your tongue. i think this is an assinine gesture. the pull signal (forefinger pointed dead square at your face, in plain view) was made "crystal" to me through my AFP jump period, in which hook was one of my jumpmasters. but ultimately, the "pull signal" should be...if all else fails, if the student sees the jumpmaster pull, it's time to do the same, no if's ands or buts. ultimately, adamantly instilling in the new jumper to be aware of their altitude (and deployment altitude) should alleviate 98% of this problem.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[skycat 0]

When I went through AFF sticking your tongue out meant legs out on those dives where the JM was infront of you. So no matter what, the 1st thing any instructor/coach should do when going to teach at a new DZ is find out what the signals are.

Fly it like you stole it!

[rgoper 0]

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So no matter what, the 1st thing any instructor/coach should do when going to teach at a new DZ is find out what the signals are.

this is a fact that cannot be refuted, good point kelli. each drop zone does utilize different signals, i, for one think they should be more uniform, but what do i know?

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Hooknswoop 19]

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in the U.S.P.A. coach's course the "pull signal" is to stick out your tongue.

Might want to double check that one.

Hook

[PhreeZone 20]

>Seems like we already have that problem.

Every student program I've seen has the closed fist for a PRCP. I used to have some student manuals on my computer but I know I grabbed them from the net. It would be interesting to see the most common signals. I know that the Coach program is different since a coach can not dump a student. It seems that on early dives facial expressions are useless since the instructor is in a sidebody and the student can't see their face.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Every student program I've seen has the closed fist for a PRCP.

I've never seen a closed fist used for any signal before recently. For PRCP's/PHT's I've seen an open hand w/ the fingers folded in as if hooking something with all four fingers and I've seen three fingers indicating 3 PRCP's/3 PHT's.


So there isn't much in the way of uniformity of AFF hand signals between DZ's. So that shouldn't be a "show-stopper" for using a closed fist for the pull signal.

Hook

[rgoper 0]

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Might want to double check that one.

that comes straight from I/E Mike Turoff, i know it's silly, ain't it? i will never utilize it...ever.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[billvon 3,073]

>I ran across a DZ that uses a closed fist for the pull sign for AFF
> training.

I don't think there's much advantage/disadvantage to either one as far as recognition. I don't think that associating a fist with a handle is a particularly strong mnemonic; if anything, pointing at the handle would be a stronger hint (I would think.) That's sometimes awkward though.

However, there is a very strong advantage to using standardized signals. Both JM's and students migrate from DZ to DZ, and even a minor problem confusing one for the other could have major consequences.

[JohnnyD 0]

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Here is a question: don't all AFF schools teach the same things? Are AFF instructors taught differently in the beginning, or do they just pick up different habits along the way?

The AFFCC is supposed to be standardized between Course Directors. Different DZ's do things differently. That is generally driven by the DZO and how he/she wants things taught. Heck, I saw a video recently where it was standard operating procedure for the instructor to pull for the student of AFF level 1.

AFF/AFP/ISP, etc is not standardized between DZ's.

Hook

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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Seems like it would be very easy to confuse with the legs signal or the altimeter signal.

I would think that it would easier to confuse "legs out" w/ the one finger pull signal (one finger vs. two fingers). I use a tap to thier altimeter or look at my altitmeter to get the student to check altitude.

Hook

Likewise, I tap either wrist to get them to wake the hell up and look at their alti. I don't have any problems with the universal "one finger pointed in any direction" signal. I am very cognizant of using my whole hand to point out things on the ground, in the air, etc, and am careful to use the whole hand for the "OK, now do a flip or barrel roll" signal. I think this all comes down to instructor proficiency.\

Chuck

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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When I went through AFF sticking your tongue out meant legs out on those dives where the JM was infront of you.

Yes, tongue out means "legs out" and is typically used on an old Level 4 skydive just after you exit with an unruly student intent of taking you on a Missouri Boat Ride.

[rgoper 0]

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Yes, tongue out means "legs out" and is typically used on an old Level 4 skydive just after you exit with an unruly student intent of taking you on a Missouri Boat Ride

LOL at Chuck! that's funny!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[markbaur 0]

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I've never seen a closed fist used for any signal before recently. For PRCP's/PHT's I've seen an open hand w/ the fingers folded in as if hooking something with all four fingers and I've seen three fingers indicating 3 PRCP's/3 PHT's.

At Skydive Twin Cities we're using a fist as a pull signal, figuring, as you guessed, that it's easier to teach that than to break a life-long habit of interpreting pointing as "look over there." In the transition from pointing to fist, we learned to ask our students, "If I wanted you to pull your ripcord, what signal would I give you?"

Using a fist means that the standard PRCT signal is not available -- others have already pointed out that the two signals are too similar. We've done without a PRCT signal this season. Some instructors here think we need a PRCT signal, so we might use one next season (open palm, for touch, as an analog to closed fist for grab), but the trade-off is signal clutter -- another signal for an overloaded student to remember.

I know some places use three fingers to indicate 3 PRCTs. I think that requires a lot of decoding by a student under stress: 1 finger = pull, 2 fingers = legs out, 3 fingers = PRCT. Plus, what do you do if you want just one more PRCT?

Mark

[WmLauterbach 0]

some odd signals being used out there...


but ya know... if you teach a guy that "the birdy finger" means pull, then to him thats what it means....

If he dont respond, you could hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood with "PULL" painted on it and he wont see it...

[cam 0]

for my aff training in australia, closed fist was the pull signal. i think this is the case at all aussie dzs. one finger pointing was 'look yr alti'
i guess being upside down, have to do the opposite...

[drenaline 0]

Not a instructor or a couch but been a 53 jumps skydiver I can only say 2 words: Dirt Dive, what you practice on the dirt dive is what you will know on the sky. If you tell them on the dirt dive that 2 thumbs up means pull then thats what they will do, its all about the dirt dive.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com