AFF Pull Signal

[TheBile 0]

As we've seen in these posts, hand signals can be misconstrued by newbie skydivers because they meant something completely different when they were 'normal' people.
Why don't we have a standardised signal which consists of closing your thumb and all fingers into an 'O' shape, moving it down to your crotch with an up and down motion. This signal would then mean pull for both Whuffos and Skydivers.

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[fusedog 0]

Mark wrote:
Not yet. Standardization inhibits innovation.
We don't need standardization between DZs, since we discourage students from DZ-hopping, and instructors are savvy enough to adapt to the students' signal set.
We need to continue experimenting to see what works: more hand signals (for greater variety of info transmitted), fewer (less complexity), different (looking for better, more intuitive transfer of information).
--------------
THIS IS THE WISEST COMMENT ON THE THREAD, IMHO.

peace
duey

i know a little 'bout it...

[jwilson 0]

[
It would be nice if people at least stayed at on dz throughout thier student program , but this doesn't really happen all the time . so maybe if an instuctor know that someone has been jumping somewhere else it would be a good idea to go over the hand signals to be used . not only on their first jump but before every jump. I remember my instructors quickly drilling me on signals before almost every jump.

Jay

[billvon 2,998]

>Not yet. Standardization inhibits innovation.

I disagree. In many cases it _encourages_ innovation. We have a tremendous number of canopies available today; do you think we would have more or less canopy options if each canopy could only be mated to one rig, due to lack of 3-ring and riser standards?

>We don't need standardization between DZs, since we discourage
> students from DZ-hopping . . .

That's not possible here in Socal; there are just too many DZ's to expect a student to stay at one.

> and instructors are savvy enough to
> adapt to the students' signal set.

I don't think it's reasonable to have a JM do, say, four jumps a day, and have to remember a different set of signals on each jump. I can remember an occasional deviation (like a "3" instead of an open fist for PPCT's) but I'd be hard pressed to review, remember and debrief a completely different set every time.

>We need to continue experimenting to see what works: more hand
> signals (for greater variety of info transmitted), fewer (less
> complexity), different (looking for better, more intuitive transfer of
> information).

I definitely agree here. However, we should be careful to keep 'experiments' separate from training at large. How safe would learning to drive be if every car had a different arrangement of gas pedal/clutch/brake?

[markbaur 0]

There was a time when the 3-ring release was not standard, but innovative.

I don't think I suggested four completely different sets of hand signals. If you can adapt to the (non-standard) 3-finger PRCT signal, you can probably adapt to the fist for pull.

Your "learning to drive" analogy breaks down when you consider that we don't need to teach a student to drive a bunch of different cars, just one car, and one not much different from the one the last instructor rode in.

Here are some experiments perpetrated on students:
-- AFF
-- square mains
-- radio
How would you have kept these experiments separate from training at large?

Mark

[PhreeZone 20]

Well, back when AFF was first on the block my impression from reading about it was not all DZ's instantly picked it up. If a 2nd jump jumper showed up they went on the static line since instructors were not there to do AFF yet. There for the students were highly encouraged to stay at one DZ till after student status.

Some DZ's used to use paddles while others used radio. Students had to be trained for the paddles if they never saw them before. This was a good thing since it prompted DZ's to get radios since they got better and faster responces then with paddles, and there was less additional retraining at each level.

To put this in a car analogy its like learning to drive a stick in the US then taking your test in a stick in England with the reversed controls.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,998]

>I don't think I suggested four completely different sets of hand
> signals.

That is the natural result of non-standardized signals for students. If you are jumping at Otay, and have students over the course of a weekend that started at Perris, Otay, Elsinore and Cal City, you'd have four different sets of hand signals - unless you standardize. (And at least at Otay, that's far from rare.)

>If you can adapt to the (non-standard) 3-finger PRCT signal, you can
> probably adapt to the fist for pull.

I think there's a big difference between a rare different signal and all different signals for all DZ's.

>Here are some experiments perpetrated on students:
>-- AFF

Try it on a small number of students first, then introduce it only after it worked, with standardized hand signals (which is what happened.)

>-- square mains

HP mains might be a better example. One DZ that I know of (SDC) does a good job of introducing students to HP canopies. It works really well there; it has been downright deadly at other DZ's when 'students' with 14 jumps start on Sabre 150's because "Roger's students do it!"

The only way to do this safely is to get them training sooner. The ISP makes a good stab at this; but again, that's a standardized curriculum.

>-- radio

I would argue that radio is not a significant change to a combination of paddles and yelling.

[markbaur 0]

Quote

at Perris, Otay, Elsinore and Cal City, you ... have four different sets of hand signals

Could you describe these four different sets of hand signals, please?

Mark

[SkySlut 0]

i have seen a "pull" signal confused for a "track that way" signal on a level 6. it ended up with a student being pulled at around 3,500 or 3,000 and an instructor with 2 canopies out due to a cypress fire. not me, but i really only use the pull signal on 2 jumpmaster jumps. I usually tap on my altimeter to tell the student that they should be a bit more aware of altitude and that usually works...