rendezvous 0 #1 August 21, 2002 I have a question regarding how tandems deal with emergency exits. From what I see tandems aren't hooked on to the TM until just short of jumps run. Then there's that whole process of pulling the straps together. Now what would happen if at 2000 feet the plane is in a dive and the pilot wants you to get out. Wouldn't trying to hook up tandems at that point cause a few precious seconds for the jumpers at the back of the plane. Shouldn't all tandems be kept hooked until some an altitude is reached which will have room for rehooking them on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #2 August 21, 2002 In the UK, it's required they're strapped up befire takeoff. I was taling o a TM about this and he said his lowest "get out" point was about 4k as the canopies take ages to open subterminal.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #3 August 21, 2002 > Now what would happen if at 2000 feet the plane is in a dive and the > pilot wants you to get out. Hook up the uppers, strip the drouge releases and go. I can do that in under 5 seconds. If altitude permits I'd connect the lowers too, but it's not critical. If I had to get out even faster I'd skip the drouge releases and pull the primary after exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #4 August 21, 2002 Quotestrip the drouge releases Could you please explain/elaborate on this bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #5 August 21, 2002 >> Now what would happen if at 2000 feet the plane is in a dive and the >> pilot wants you to get out. >Hook up the uppers, strip the drouge releases and go. I can do that in under 5 seconds. If altitude permits I'd connect the lowers too, but it's not critical. If I had to get out even faster I'd skip the drouge releases and pull the primary after exit. Out of curiosity, under what altitude would you go straight for the reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #6 August 21, 2002 that's the crazy thing about tandems. the reserves are typically the same as the main Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites polarbear 1 #7 August 21, 2002 I've actually heard that (on Strong rigs) only ONE of the uppers is needed for a safe exit and deployment. I do know that the upper connection consists of 5000 lb. proof load hardware, which is pretty stout. That being said, I'm not a tandem master, so take it with a grain of salt. "Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,009 #8 August 21, 2002 >Out of curiosity, under what altitude would you go straight for the >reserve? Depends on the issue. Level flight with one engine out? Below 2000 feet. Fast descent, fire etc? Below 3000. Going for the reserve removes the requirement to strip the drouge release, and thus saves time in the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #9 August 21, 2002 Then you have Sigma's where you can't strip the handles. You have to dump the drogue to be able to dump the main *if* the closing pins are set right.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,009 #10 August 21, 2002 >>strip the drouge releases . . . >Could you please explain/elaborate on this bit. Pull the drouge releases before exiting the aircraft. This turns the drouge into essentially a PC. >you strip all the handles, meaning the drogue becomes a pilot >chute/BOC type, that might just be faster than a reserve deployment >on a tandem set up. Well, depends on the tandem type. On a Strong tandem, the drouge is not collapsed until the canopy is out of the bag, so that would work. On an older Vector, the drouge collapses immediately upon drouge release, so that might not be such a good idea for a subterminal opening. In addition, some main canopies (Strong Set-400) open hideously slow compared to the reserve (425's.) >I've actually heard that (on Strong rigs) only ONE of the uppers is > needed for a safe exit and deployment. I do know that the upper > connection consists of 5000 lb. proof load hardware, which is pretty > stout. It's true that it will likely hold, but I would not want to open with 75% of the load on one side of the canopy. Seems like that's asking for trouble - line twist at least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #11 August 21, 2002 right my limited experience was a Strong system.... the sigmas are very different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #12 August 22, 2002 Quotethe sigmas are very different. Yes, but from my limited experience and the few different tandem rigs I've had the "pleasure" of seeing and such, Sigmas have really impressed me. Very sturdy rigs with a unique but seemingly rock solid release system. To say the least the Sigma has really impressed me.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lummy 4 #13 August 22, 2002 QuoteIt's true that it will likely hold, but I would not want to open with 75% of the load on one side of the canopy. Seems like that's asking for trouble - line twist at least. and more thank likely one VERY freaked out passenger flailing all over the place. I couldn't definitely see that being a disaster in the making in my opinion Really good thread, I've wondered about this question from time to time but never thought to askI promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cornholio 0 #14 August 22, 2002 This is one reason why I would not want to do a tandem anymore. I thought they were cool until I started to think about it... yeah, yeah, I know the mind is good at fooling us into thinking bad thoughts. So anyway, I wondered that same question too. I would feel awkward riding up to hookup altitude without anthing connected to the TM. That just scares me. I think if the upper connections were connected from takeoff, then I would have more confidence. then again, now I'm hearing that it takes forever for a reserve deployment at sub-term speeds. Nope, no way, no how... no tandems for me, thank you very much. Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast! Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool! bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #15 August 22, 2002 QuoteThis is one reason why I would not want to do a tandem anymore. I thought they were cool until I started to think about it... yeah, yeah, I know the mind is good at fooling us into thinking bad thoughts. . Yep. A few years back I was a tandem passenger for a friend who was getting his rating. The Queen Air picked that load to blow an engine at 800 feet. Everyone landed with the plane, but it royally sucked not even having a choice in the matter! I wanted a parachute! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #16 August 22, 2002 I had two this year . . . #1 C-130, Vector II, 4000 AGL, engine out. Stood up, hooked up/tightened down in about 45 sec. Did a poised exit, set drogue, released drogue. #2 Twin Otter, Sigma, 4000 AGL, engine out. Quickly put the student in my lap and hooked up/tightened down just as quickly as the first one. Poised exit, set drogue, released drogue. In both situations, the aircraft was straight and level and we had plenty of altitude. We were also in the vicinity of the DZ. I will hook up my student for takeoff if the A/C takes off and climbs with no door. I am always prepared for an emergency exit whether with tandems or not. You will rarely see me close my eyes for a cat nap. The big thing about aircraft emergencies is to stay in your seat, prepare yourself (and your student if you have one) for exit. Don't make a move to the door until the pilot gives the OK - he's in charge. Premature movement toward the door could cause a CG shift to make things much worse than they already are.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flipper 0 #17 August 23, 2002 0~1000...stay with the aircraft...unless the thing has lost a wing ...would get out if i could and use the reserve 1000~2000...out and use the reserve. 2000~4000...pull the drogue release out prior to exit (strong) 4000+...as normal ...except do eveything quicker i always hook up prior to take off...stupid not to...unless you are very proficient at hooking up while all hell breaks loose around about you. yep the attachments do take 5000Lbs to break on a strong system....but i dont think id want to risk it breaking or the opening on a tandem chute loaded that heavely on one side Ive used the reserve (strong) once and its opens and flys better than most tandem mains that i have jumped... Flipper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kurt 0 #18 August 27, 2002 Strip de drogeu relaise??!! It all depends on the tandem system. And a plane in a dive at 2000 feet. Sorry mate. Your dead!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,009 #19 August 27, 2002 >Strip de drogeu relaise??!! Was that French? >And a plane in a dive at 2000 feet. Sorry mate. Your dead!! It's not the best place to be, true, but people have exited far lower and survived exiting from planes that were on fire and descending. They've also died when planes stalled and spun at 3000 feet - there are no guarantees. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WmLauterbach 0 #20 August 27, 2002 Stripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous practice to get into... to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of sequence main deployment ..... the number one KILLER of tandem jumpers world wide since the birth of tandem skydiving. Also, stripping the handles esentially collapses the drogue, (on a Vector, the drogue will not fully inflate if the release handle is pulled first) so in an emergency situation you are relying on an 'uncocked' pilot chute to open your main... You are better off waiting 1-2 seconds for the drouge to inflate, then releasing it, than waiting 10-15 for an underinflated drogue to pull it out for you... just my 2 cents... I could be wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #21 August 27, 2002 QuoteStripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous practice to get into... to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of sequence main deployment ..... the number one KILLER of tandem jumpers world wide since the birth of tandem skydiving. Also, stripping the handles esentially collapses the drogue, (on a Vector, the drogue will not fully inflate if the release handle is pulled first) so in an emergency situation you are relying on an 'uncocked' pilot chute to open your main... You are better off waiting 1-2 seconds for the drouge to inflate, then releasing it, than waiting 10-15 for an underinflated drogue to pull it out for you... On Strong Tandem systems, pulling both drogue release handles before exit is the correct emergency proceudre for bailing out on the main. Eclipse, Vector II and Sigmas are different. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,009 #22 August 27, 2002 >Stripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous > practice to get into... It is, however, the manufacturer-recommended method for a low bailout on Strong rigs. I would want a very, very good reason for not following the manufacturer's emergency procedures during a low bailout. >to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of >sequence main deployment. In terms of normal tandem operating procedures that's true, but in terms of general parachute operation you have turned a drouge-slowed system into a normal throwout system, operated as a normal throwout system. We have tens of millions of examples of how a normal throwout system works pretty well. >You are better off waiting 1-2 seconds for the drouge to inflate, then > releasing it, than waiting 10-15 for an underinflated drogue to pull it > out for you... Strong drouges do not deflate until the canopy is out of the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverds 0 #23 August 27, 2002 QuoteStripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous practice to get into... to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of sequence main deployment Don't know if I would call that an out of sequence deployment since the container is still closed and the drouge is still in the pouch. As the poster above said, all you are doing on a Strong rig is turning the drouge into a big ass pilot chute. I have jumped the strong tandem like this several times on demo jumps carrying large flags. Works just fine. Skydive Radio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WmLauterbach 0 #24 August 28, 2002 ...I dont jump strongs, which is why I specified "Vector" in my thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites des 2 #25 September 8, 2002 as most tandem rigs have a cypres set to fire at around 2000', under 3000',i'm hitting my reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
polarbear 1 #7 August 21, 2002 I've actually heard that (on Strong rigs) only ONE of the uppers is needed for a safe exit and deployment. I do know that the upper connection consists of 5000 lb. proof load hardware, which is pretty stout. That being said, I'm not a tandem master, so take it with a grain of salt. "Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #8 August 21, 2002 >Out of curiosity, under what altitude would you go straight for the >reserve? Depends on the issue. Level flight with one engine out? Below 2000 feet. Fast descent, fire etc? Below 3000. Going for the reserve removes the requirement to strip the drouge release, and thus saves time in the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 August 21, 2002 Then you have Sigma's where you can't strip the handles. You have to dump the drogue to be able to dump the main *if* the closing pins are set right.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #10 August 21, 2002 >>strip the drouge releases . . . >Could you please explain/elaborate on this bit. Pull the drouge releases before exiting the aircraft. This turns the drouge into essentially a PC. >you strip all the handles, meaning the drogue becomes a pilot >chute/BOC type, that might just be faster than a reserve deployment >on a tandem set up. Well, depends on the tandem type. On a Strong tandem, the drouge is not collapsed until the canopy is out of the bag, so that would work. On an older Vector, the drouge collapses immediately upon drouge release, so that might not be such a good idea for a subterminal opening. In addition, some main canopies (Strong Set-400) open hideously slow compared to the reserve (425's.) >I've actually heard that (on Strong rigs) only ONE of the uppers is > needed for a safe exit and deployment. I do know that the upper > connection consists of 5000 lb. proof load hardware, which is pretty > stout. It's true that it will likely hold, but I would not want to open with 75% of the load on one side of the canopy. Seems like that's asking for trouble - line twist at least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #11 August 21, 2002 right my limited experience was a Strong system.... the sigmas are very different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 August 22, 2002 Quotethe sigmas are very different. Yes, but from my limited experience and the few different tandem rigs I've had the "pleasure" of seeing and such, Sigmas have really impressed me. Very sturdy rigs with a unique but seemingly rock solid release system. To say the least the Sigma has really impressed me.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #13 August 22, 2002 QuoteIt's true that it will likely hold, but I would not want to open with 75% of the load on one side of the canopy. Seems like that's asking for trouble - line twist at least. and more thank likely one VERY freaked out passenger flailing all over the place. I couldn't definitely see that being a disaster in the making in my opinion Really good thread, I've wondered about this question from time to time but never thought to askI promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cornholio 0 #14 August 22, 2002 This is one reason why I would not want to do a tandem anymore. I thought they were cool until I started to think about it... yeah, yeah, I know the mind is good at fooling us into thinking bad thoughts. So anyway, I wondered that same question too. I would feel awkward riding up to hookup altitude without anthing connected to the TM. That just scares me. I think if the upper connections were connected from takeoff, then I would have more confidence. then again, now I'm hearing that it takes forever for a reserve deployment at sub-term speeds. Nope, no way, no how... no tandems for me, thank you very much. Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast! Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool! bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #15 August 22, 2002 QuoteThis is one reason why I would not want to do a tandem anymore. I thought they were cool until I started to think about it... yeah, yeah, I know the mind is good at fooling us into thinking bad thoughts. . Yep. A few years back I was a tandem passenger for a friend who was getting his rating. The Queen Air picked that load to blow an engine at 800 feet. Everyone landed with the plane, but it royally sucked not even having a choice in the matter! I wanted a parachute! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #16 August 22, 2002 I had two this year . . . #1 C-130, Vector II, 4000 AGL, engine out. Stood up, hooked up/tightened down in about 45 sec. Did a poised exit, set drogue, released drogue. #2 Twin Otter, Sigma, 4000 AGL, engine out. Quickly put the student in my lap and hooked up/tightened down just as quickly as the first one. Poised exit, set drogue, released drogue. In both situations, the aircraft was straight and level and we had plenty of altitude. We were also in the vicinity of the DZ. I will hook up my student for takeoff if the A/C takes off and climbs with no door. I am always prepared for an emergency exit whether with tandems or not. You will rarely see me close my eyes for a cat nap. The big thing about aircraft emergencies is to stay in your seat, prepare yourself (and your student if you have one) for exit. Don't make a move to the door until the pilot gives the OK - he's in charge. Premature movement toward the door could cause a CG shift to make things much worse than they already are.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #17 August 23, 2002 0~1000...stay with the aircraft...unless the thing has lost a wing ...would get out if i could and use the reserve 1000~2000...out and use the reserve. 2000~4000...pull the drogue release out prior to exit (strong) 4000+...as normal ...except do eveything quicker i always hook up prior to take off...stupid not to...unless you are very proficient at hooking up while all hell breaks loose around about you. yep the attachments do take 5000Lbs to break on a strong system....but i dont think id want to risk it breaking or the opening on a tandem chute loaded that heavely on one side Ive used the reserve (strong) once and its opens and flys better than most tandem mains that i have jumped... Flipper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kurt 0 #18 August 27, 2002 Strip de drogeu relaise??!! It all depends on the tandem system. And a plane in a dive at 2000 feet. Sorry mate. Your dead!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #19 August 27, 2002 >Strip de drogeu relaise??!! Was that French? >And a plane in a dive at 2000 feet. Sorry mate. Your dead!! It's not the best place to be, true, but people have exited far lower and survived exiting from planes that were on fire and descending. They've also died when planes stalled and spun at 3000 feet - there are no guarantees. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WmLauterbach 0 #20 August 27, 2002 Stripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous practice to get into... to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of sequence main deployment ..... the number one KILLER of tandem jumpers world wide since the birth of tandem skydiving. Also, stripping the handles esentially collapses the drogue, (on a Vector, the drogue will not fully inflate if the release handle is pulled first) so in an emergency situation you are relying on an 'uncocked' pilot chute to open your main... You are better off waiting 1-2 seconds for the drouge to inflate, then releasing it, than waiting 10-15 for an underinflated drogue to pull it out for you... just my 2 cents... I could be wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 August 27, 2002 QuoteStripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous practice to get into... to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of sequence main deployment ..... the number one KILLER of tandem jumpers world wide since the birth of tandem skydiving. Also, stripping the handles esentially collapses the drogue, (on a Vector, the drogue will not fully inflate if the release handle is pulled first) so in an emergency situation you are relying on an 'uncocked' pilot chute to open your main... You are better off waiting 1-2 seconds for the drouge to inflate, then releasing it, than waiting 10-15 for an underinflated drogue to pull it out for you... On Strong Tandem systems, pulling both drogue release handles before exit is the correct emergency proceudre for bailing out on the main. Eclipse, Vector II and Sigmas are different. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #22 August 27, 2002 >Stripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous > practice to get into... It is, however, the manufacturer-recommended method for a low bailout on Strong rigs. I would want a very, very good reason for not following the manufacturer's emergency procedures during a low bailout. >to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of >sequence main deployment. In terms of normal tandem operating procedures that's true, but in terms of general parachute operation you have turned a drouge-slowed system into a normal throwout system, operated as a normal throwout system. We have tens of millions of examples of how a normal throwout system works pretty well. >You are better off waiting 1-2 seconds for the drouge to inflate, then > releasing it, than waiting 10-15 for an underinflated drogue to pull it > out for you... Strong drouges do not deflate until the canopy is out of the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverds 0 #23 August 27, 2002 QuoteStripping the handles before throwing the drogue is a dangerous practice to get into... to use that as a "plan" means you are mentally practicing an out of sequence main deployment Don't know if I would call that an out of sequence deployment since the container is still closed and the drouge is still in the pouch. As the poster above said, all you are doing on a Strong rig is turning the drouge into a big ass pilot chute. I have jumped the strong tandem like this several times on demo jumps carrying large flags. Works just fine. Skydive Radio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WmLauterbach 0 #24 August 28, 2002 ...I dont jump strongs, which is why I specified "Vector" in my thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
des 2 #25 September 8, 2002 as most tandem rigs have a cypres set to fire at around 2000', under 3000',i'm hitting my reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
