People who dump high

[ywoodya 0]

Just a quick one.

There's this guy at my local DZ who appears to have a fetish for dumping high.
On the weekend he was in a 4 way first off the door then someone yells out that this guy is gonna dump at 5,000. My first thought is what the f*&k is he doing going first out with a 4 way if he's gonna dump high? I hope he has a good level of awareness for those coming out behind him.
This is about the 6th time that I have heard about this guy wanting to dump higher than what would be considered by most to be a safe altitude more like 3,000. I understand that people can be scared of the ground but hey it's 3,000 deal with it.
I think he dumps high because he is scared, he has over 200 jumps but you wouldn't think so.

BTW, this isn't an attempt to slander, purely my thoughts on a safety issue.

[quade 4]

Yeah, the guy needs a talking to.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you take the initiative and talk to him?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 20]

While its not the smartest idea.. there is nothing wrong with opening high as long as the entire plane knows, there is PROPER exit seperation and the person opening high flys 90 to the flight line after they open untill the last group is open.

Think of it this way.. what if it wsa'nt an intentional opening but an accidental premature deployment at 5000 feet, how would that be different?

The fear of the ground is another issue that I don't want to post about, I'll let someone with more knowledge in the human mind do that...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ducky 0]

My 2cents...

To add a twist the first time I had a riser cover come open and start smackin me in the ear at 7k I didn't know what to do. i knew "something" was loose and not where it should be yet i was a lil high to pull with peeps behind me. I grabbed the hackey, went into a track for about 6 second, waved off like mad and dumped quick. I was worried about those above and behind me, but not knowing what exactly was happening with my gear I saw it necessary to dump. I later spoke with anyone who would listen about at the DZ and they all agreed I did the right thing, including those who exited immediatley following me on that load. At 40 jumps I did not have the experience to diagnose the problem in freefall and felt better slowing things down a bit.


kwak

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[billvon 2,996]

>there is nothing wrong with opening high as long as the entire plane
> knows, there is PROPER exit seperation and the person opening
> high flys 90 to the flight line after they open untill the last group is
> open.

And as long as they are sequenced properly.

> what if it wsa'nt an intentional opening but an accidental premature
> deployment at 5000 feet, how would that be different?

Most fatalities are due to several mistakes in series; opening high when you're the first group out is just the first in a series of mistakes that might lead to a problem. Add insufficient exit separation, and a group that tracks a bit, and you could have a collision.

[ywoodya 0]

i totally agree with you....you sound as if you were very aware of where you were and what was going on at the time.....and training helped you to deal with the problem promptly.
My point here is that this guy continually dumps high, in fact you become a bit nervous when going out after him because you don't really know what he's gonna do. i might as well have a chat with him, i mean im not all that experienced and shouldn't be talking to people but maybe ill just find out on a personal basis.....if he has a problem he should talk to the DZSO?
In terms of safety well you do what you gotta do. having your riser cover open during freefall needs to be dealt with and if you dump higher than usual then you sort of need to be prepared for collisions etc. sort of like each time you freefly (or skydive in any form or shape) you have to expect the unexpected especially when it comes to premature openings....
i simply have a concern for this individual and his safety. during my training at around the 50 jump mark i decided that i wanted to start dumping between 4,000 and 5,000 just to give me "another 10 seconds) but at the end of the day i joined with other more experienced jumpers who sort of insisted that i go down to a more suitable height being 3,000. I haven't gone any lower than about 2,700 but if i need to to get away from people then so be it, i'll just be prepared for anything that may happen (as always) and sort it out if required, so long as im under canopy by 1,800ft i'd be happy.
thanks for your input, it's an interesting topic no doubt!

yeah whatever!

[quade 4]

Quote

i mean im not all that experienced and shouldn't be talking to people but maybe ill just find out on a personal basis.....

Try to never feel as if your too inexperienced (or TOO experienced) to ask somebody a question. You don't have to be confrontational in your approach. Just approach the guy and ask him, as if you were asking the time of day, what the consequences are of him dumping high with groups behind him are. If he's never given it a thought, try to clue him in.

I do this sort of thing -all- the time. If I'm in the plane with some people that I'm not too sure about as far as exit separation goes, I ask them what the uppers are. If they don't know, I ask them to ask the pilot. When they tell me the uppers, I then ask them if they know how to figure out exit separation from that information. If they don't seem to know, I try to clue them in.

It doesn't have to be confrontational. You'll learn something, he'll learn something -- it's a beautiful thing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jessefs 0]

Is it ever appropriate to pull at 5,000 or even 4,000? Say you do want that extra 10 seconds, longer canopy flight, or whatever reason it may be. Is it acceptable if informing everyone on the ground and exiting last, or under what conditions? Just wonderingJesse

<* Spread the Love! *>

[skip 0]

I open at 4 as a rule. I’m a very low time jumper and I want the time because I’m still learning about my canopy etc. I’m not afraid of the ground at 3 per say, I rather just want to at this point in my skydiving career get my canopy open slightly above the up jumpers and below the tandems and AFP students; and also have time to analyze any situation that might arise. Before boarding the plane I look at all the groups, talk with everyone just curiously inquiring into what everyone else is doing which usually prompts a “group decision” on how to board the plane. Once in flight I reiterate to the groups around me that I am opening at 4, and on a few occasions we have adjusted our exit order minutes before jump run, and or I have been asked to allot for more separation by helpful up jumpers who understood where I was coming from. So far there have been yea little problems however one time I watched a jumper who I had “coordinated” with dump at 4.8 when we had agreed on 4, fortunately our exit separation was very adequate and everything was good however it made me think a bit. At 40 jumps I feel a little awkward questioning an up jumper about opening altitude when he or she says “oh I’m going to open somewhere around 3 or 4”, and I do understand that anything can happen and we have to anticipate these factors before they happen, but I do think that coordination and a “stern” dump altitude can allow me to safely open at 4. Hmm well that’s my rant, damn it’s late.

.:skip

[Kirils 1]

I pull high, as often as possible. Usually around 4000'. I want time to improve and develop new canopy skills. One of the best swoopers I know will pull at 7000' and higher at times, to work out new techniques.
How else do you get time to train under canopy?
If traffic, jumper density and the pilot say OK, why not??

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[rhino 0]

BINGO!!! I am with Kirils on this one.

Especially concerning people with smaller, high performance canopies. I pull high as well.

I quiet often do hop-n-pops from altitude to fly my canopy. Granted, when in the middle of a lineup doing RW it is a slightly different story. As long as you tell the group behind you I see no problem with pulling a bit high what-so-ever on a regular dropzone setting.

The convention was different with thousands of people in the air you don't want someone from another aircraft coming down on top of you.

We shouldn't ever bash those who pull high for one reason or another if they do it wisely. We should however talk to those who pull low. Me personally am RARELY in the seat below 2500 feet. My average at the convention was 2700 feet.

Rhino

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Is it ever appropriate to pull at 5,000 or even 4,000? Say you do want that extra 10 seconds, longer canopy flight, or whatever reason it may be. Is it acceptable if informing everyone on the ground and exiting last, or under what conditions? Just wondering
Jesse

I don't think it's so much about altitude as predictability and planning. You can pull at 10k if you want so long as the exit was planned around not having anyone falling down on top of you.

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

Absolutely -
Cross Country, CReW, and anyone that wants to have a long canopy ride. You should just plan on being the last group out.

[christoofar 0]

Quote

I don't think it's so much about altitude as predictability and planning. You can pull at 10k if you want so long as the exit was planned around not having anyone falling down on top of you.

Don't all/most DZs already have exit order rules for this? We've got ours posted inside the plane in big letters next to the door and you stare at it the entire way to altitude.

If you get your own jump run you sit first (5 1/2 for HNP, 10 1/2 for tandem run). Standard jump run is RW in order from largest to smallest, freefly in order from largest to smallest, Students & Tandems, then high-pullers. It's burned into our heads.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[riggerrob 643]

It is okay to open high as long as you plan it with the pilot and other jumpers. Some DZs, ie. Perris have a block of airspace known as "CReW Country" for people who want to open high. If you open high in CReW Country, you have to stay away from the freefall airspace until about 2,000' then you zip over and land beside the other jumpers.

[quade 4]

There are a lot of reasons you might want to deploy high and as long as you inform people of your intentions and work out a plan to keep you separated from others, then there shouldn't really be an issue with it. Maybe you want to check out the handling characteristics of your canopy. Maybe you're doing CReW. Maybe you just want to enjoy the view.

What is NOT appropriate, other than in some type of emergency situation, is to deploy high if that wasn't the plan AND communicated with others. Even then, I can think of few emergency situations where a high deployment is required. A BAD SPOT IS NOT AN EMERGENCY SITUATION. Do NOT deploy high just because you have a bad spot!

Unscheduled high deployments can kill people.

Further, it is NEVER appropriate to deploy high if you have a camera flyer with you unless you've personally discussed the entire deployment sequence with the camera flyer.
Not the LO, the camera flyer.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Michele 1]

I deploy high, like 4,000 or so. I tell manifest. I tell the people standing in the loading area. I tell the jumpers before boarding. While boarding, I ask those around me where they're opening, and make sure they know where I am opening. We make seat adjustments if necessary.

And then, I make sure the person who's exiting behind me knows to give me lots of separation, and I give the person in front of me lots of separation.

I have only pulled above my declared pull alti once, and that was during AFF, when I couldn't see my alti. I made sure I knew where my jm and videographer were, made sure they knew I was pulling, waved really hard, and then pulled.

Now, a question. What do you do if you have an equipment situation and need to pull high? Wait, and then pull at the proscribed and agreed alti, or pull and then fly (which direction?)?
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 4]

Quote

Now, a question. What do you do if you have an equipment situation and need to pull high? Wait, and then pull at the proscribed and agreed alti, or pull and then fly (which direction?)?

Can you give me a scenario in which you think you'd need to do that? I'm having a difficult time thinking of an equipment issue to use as an example.

About the only thing I can come up with is a funnel that leads to a pin getting knocked loose opening the container and giving you a horseshoe. Obviously that would be an emergency you'd need to deal with and any camera flyer should be able to see and avoid something like that.

What else can you think of? Goggles coming loose? Well, that's not an emergency is it? Broken altimeter? Also not an emergency. There might be something that would require a higher than normal deployment, but I can't think of it right now.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 20]

How about riser cover comes open and a toggle pops out? You know its probally going to be an ugly opening... or do you fire your reserve through the flopping toggle? Or on an ROl where most the PC was knocked out in a funnel and it might pop at any time.... do you pull high or hang out near the formation and possibly get sucked out any time? The others in the group might not realize the mal and try to fly to you to turn the points...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Michele 1]

Quote

What else can you think of

Hmmmm...brings up an interesting point. Some of the things I *think* might be an "emergency" may not be...risers loose (prolly not), or something like that, I guess. I honestly don't know the "right" answer.

When would it be appropriate to pull high unexpectedly (not planning on it, just trying to get some info!)?

I appreciate your instruction, Quade.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 4]

In either of those two cases I think the best thing to do might be to leave the formation tracking perpendicular to the line of flight, but I'm still not sure either would require a high opening.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[christoofar 0]

Quote

What else can you think of? Goggles coming loose? Well, that's not an emergency is it? Broken altimeter? Also not an emergency. There might be something that would require a higher than normal deployment, but I can't think of it right now.

An injury/collision whilst in freefall is a perfect example. After getting my right shoulder joint dislocated, I *needed* to get something out fast and NOW. I had no AAD.

I tried 3 times to move my right arm, nothing. Pulled silver as soon as I could, had a Raven out around 6,000 ft. That gave me lots of time to figure out how to control and flare with one working arm.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[quade 4]

And that's a good example of an emergency, but certainly not an equipment issue like Michele asked about.

Heck, I'd cut somebody a lot of slack if he just had barotrauma, wanted to track away and pull high.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[christoofar 0]

Quote

And that's a good example of an emergency, but certainly not an equipment issue like Michele asked about.

Heck, I'd cut somebody a lot of slack if he just had barotrauma, wanted to track away and pull high.

Hmm... as far as equipment goes, anything that's lashing the crap out of you to the point where you can't possibly continue the dive (i.e. straps, poor choice in Halloween costume, tube gone bad, skyboard going apeshit), would be a good reason to pull high; if you are with people turn and get away from them before you do it.

I think the issue on this thread are people who are intentionally choosing to pull high and are sitting next to the door, which is wrong. If you are so uncomfortable with pulling at 3,000; then get your buddies to pull with you at 6, or wherever you are going to dump at and sit in the back. There's nothing wrong with that.

I've even chosen to intentionally pull high for various reasons, such as getting more time under canopy, and also jumped out last and pulled high to watch an AFF jump (after asking the JM if I could do it).

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Scrumpot 1]

Sorry I'm a week or so behind this (hey, I've got JUMPING to do!) ...but one VALID equipment emergency that would make it reasonable to dump high would be realizing you have a bunch of bridle OUT & flapping in the breeze! In that case it is appropriate (heck probably downright imperative) that you dump NOW. The potential consequences of NOT (either recognizing or) pitching in that scenario sends shivers...

coitus non circum - Moab Stone