People who dump high

[quade 4]

I'm not so sure that just having some bridle out requires an instantaneous deployment. Sure, it's something that needs to be addressed rapidly, but unless the pin had already been pulled resulting in a horseshoe mal, I think I'd tend to want the person to at least make an attempt to turn and track for a few seconds before deploying. The difference being that in the first instance there is the possibility of an immediate problem and in the second the problem has already happened.

With the bridle flapping it may deploy all by itself putting others that might be above and in the line of fire in danger, but it hasn't yet, so why make the problem immediate by deploying immediately?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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... one VALID equipment emergency that would make it reasonable to dump high would be realizing you have a bunch of bridle OUT & flapping in the breeze! In that case it is appropriate (heck probably downright imperative) that you dump NOW. The potential consequences of NOT (either recognizing or) pitching in that scenario sends shivers...

We learn from others mistakes, so I'm writing my most embaressing skydiving story here for that purpose. I'm not proud of my errors, but if this can save somebody's hide (and possibly a life) then it's worth the pain of confession here.

This post kinda reminds me of Labor Day weekend 1997 at Eloy. Almost exactly 5 years ago. Jump #163.

I did a sit-fly after a sweaty and sticky pack job on my PD-170 main. (Hey, it was Labor Day at Eloy and about 1 million degrees outside with 1,000% humidity!) The canopy packed up small and I didn't adjust my closing loop to snug up the pack job (mistake #1).

Then I went and did a solo sit-fly. (mistake #2).

Great sit-fly, grinning at the burning hot sand and sun...then I felt a small tap on my head! I turned and wondered -who- had followed me out of the SkyVan and wanted to have 'fun' and dock on my solo jump!

Shocked and surprised I was to see I had a horseshoe mal!! I flipped over onto my belly, thought for a second about proper procedures, and dumped right there and then at 7 grand. (mistake #3).

Wow, did I get ripped a new one when I got down! Not for the horseshoe, but the high deployment! -Several- Eloy instructors 'lovingly' informed me of my mistake and causing a go-around of the plane that had followed the SkyVan (I had exited last). They -almost- didn't see me there and almost exited right on top of where I was!

Now, several years later, and more experience under the belt, I can see exactly what they were so angry and concerned about. And what would have happened if I wasn't the last one out as well?

IMHO (and those of the instructors there), the proper procedure -should- have been that I waited until a more reasonable altitude (say 3-4,000'), expect a spinning mal when I deployed my Main Canopy...be prepared to cut it away, the deploy my Reserve by my hard deck (1600').

So, even if you are last out (on a busy DZ) perhaps the 'high delployment' senerio isn't the most desirable of decisions. Expect a spinning mal when clearing your horseshoe, and take appropriate action at the proper altitude.

Just my .02 as an AFFI (5 years later),
ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[PhreeZone 20]

Only thing that scares me in telling some one to wait is what if waiting makes it worse by lettings leines wrap on you if its bouncing all around? I'd hate for some one to bounce becase they were afaid of seperation and died due to waiting and it was unclearable after waiting.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ltdiver 3]

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Only thing that scares me in telling some one to wait is what if waiting makes it worse by lettings leines wrap on you if its bouncing all around? I'd hate for some one to bounce becase they were afaid of seperation and died due to waiting and it was unclearable after waiting.

Fair question, Phree.

Consider that if the person is belly-to-earth, wouldn't the d-bag be following behind the person's back and not circling around? I'll admit that I was one lucky skydiver in that my horseshoe mal didn't wrap around me before I discovered it (while still in a sit).

IMHO, if the horseshoe is discovered -before- the lines are wrapping, then getting on your belly as fast and carefully as possible is in order. I rotated over from sit to belly falling forward over my knees. This kept the lines behind me. I then kept my arms in close until my decision to dump happend (only a few second later).

Yes, I was very lucky and scared shitless as I successfully deployed, flew, and landed my reserve. I still thank the lucky stars that it didn't end up differently, as it easily could have.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[PhreeZone 20]

They reason I thought of this is I've seen on video a PC pop into the middle of a Horny Gorilla, fall in the burble of the formation and only but sheer luck reinflate and take off with out wrapping anyone. If a PC or D bag gets in the jumpers burble it stands to assume that it could fall right? Or am I giving the burble too much credit here?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,991]

>I'm not so sure that just having some bridle out requires an
> instantaneous deployment. . . . I think I'd tend to want the person
> to at least make an attempt to turn and track for a few seconds
> before deploying.

If I felt anything begin to deploy (D-bag, PC, bridle, open container) I'd wave off like crazy and deploy shortly thereafter. I would not track because:

1. I often do big ways, and tracking over or under someone else to get clear is clearly a very bad idea at that point

2. Tracking could very easily make the problem worse - and during any of the above I won't know what the problem is

3. Tracking a short distance can be worse than useless if the cameraman has seen it and is trying to back away.

For a 2 to 10 way I could see an argument for identifying the problem and then tracking if it's just a bridle, but personally I am not flexible enough to be able to tell an open container from a free bridle.

[ltdiver 3]

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They reason I thought of this is I've seen on video a PC pop into the middle of a Horny Gorilla, fall in the burble of the formation and only but sheer luck reinflate and take off with out wrapping anyone. If a PC or D bag gets in the jumpers burble it stands to assume that it could fall right? Or am I giving the burble too much credit here?

I've seen the video (or one very similar to it) as well. Again, very scarey and unforseen. Like billvon said in the post just under yours, if the bridle is seen before deploying the main, then evasive action is needed to clear the area first by attracting attention to what you're about to do...thus saving just the situation you are referring to.

My best guess is that those freeflyers -would- have done just that if they'd seen it coming. But they were taken by surprise and lady luck was on their side.

As for a horseshoe mal, see attached for a pic. See how the lines are stretched behind the jumper's back. Also see Horseshoe Mal as to how Skydiving's Q&A addressed the situation (along with the Golden Knights research demo).

Yes, the burble makes a difference. However the burble would make the pc or d-bag bounce off your back, wouldn't it? If the bridle was too short to clear the it, that is. If it came to one side or the other the clean air would catch it and take it back above.

In my horseshoe mal (for this is the only experience I have to refer to personally) the d-bag did not make contact with my back once it had glanced off my head during the sit.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[kallend 2,027]

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About the only thing I can come up with is a funnel that leads to a pin
getting knocked loose opening the container and giving you a horseshoe.

This happened to one of my team mates two weeks ago; I think he clipped the door frame on exit. His main container was open during the freefall. He wondered why people were waving him away and giving him the AFF pull signal - then he figured it out...

[freeflir29 0]

Ummm...if I have "stuff" flapping. I'm going to wave and pull as fast as possible. I had this happen once I think. I was solo so I really don't know what it was. I suspect a riser had come partially out during a 6000Ft stand. I felt it but was only a couple more seconds from deploying anyway. It all came out fine. I wouldn't want to "Play the lottery" by allowing an "unknown" to keep flapping in the breeze. I don't care if it's the WFFC. I'm gonna dump. Then fly as far away from the jump run as possible while PRAYING people bother to look down before getting out.

[PhillyKev 0]

I'm with Clay. I have anything funky going on, or stuff out of my container, I'm getting the rest of it out. I'd rather know that I have a potentially deadly problem as high as possible to give me the max amount of time to correct it.

Regarding the plane that had to do a go around, I'd say it's probably a bad idea to put jumpers out directly over another plane load anyway. That's just asking for problems. Did that plane check if there was anyone doing an intentional high alti pull? Did they inform everyone in your plane that jumpers were coming out directly over them?

[Scrumpot 1]

Wow, some of you guys are really quick (to respond) out there! I have been "lurking" around these forums for quite some time now & this was actually my first ever "post". I purposefully did not give specifics or further embelishments as to the bridle-out scenario, and instead "profferred it up" specifically to potentially re-stir some debate (and therefore maybe some more thought) on this one. I'm glad to see some REAL results & "effectiveness" in here! Quite "refreshing" in contrast to my 6 yrs experience over on "wreck-dot". ...And (so far anyway) no "flames" (yet) either!
Quade, in responding to your earlier query/observation:

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Can you give me a scenario in which you think you'd need to do that? I'm having a difficult time thinking of an equipment issue to use as an example.

I think that just in the strictest term of "direct response" I have indeed given you a scenario where "equipment issue" COULD possibly (and highly likely actually) result in a "high deployment" for valid reasons. I think that BillVon has summarized my position in this matter pretty well. Regardless if you choose to handle the situation by tracking a bit after noticing the problem (something I disagree with) or you point & waive-off assertively (as BillVon suggests); ...either way you are going to (and SHOULD, again IMHO) as a net end-result "dump high".

I can continue with 2 illustrations that I have PERSONALLY SEEN in regards/response to just this scenario; and maybe I will under separate cover (and when I have more time ---I've already had to "blank my screen" twice in avoidance of the good-ol' Mr. Boss-man!). But thank you all (again -so far so good) for the apparent courteous & EFFECTIVE "reception" in this, my official "PRE-SECOND" foray into these forums.

...And yes, I obviously like these little emoticons you can use in here too!!
Blue, SAFE skyz all!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone