How would you react?

[LawnDart21 0]

Here is a question that has recently come up alot, and since my last post about diving line twists is a precursor to this mal, I thought I'd throw this question to you guys and see what responses I get?
"You deploy at a decent atlitude, say, 3500ft, you open up with diving line twists, you make the decision that it is unrecoverable, and initiate emergency procedures. You grab your cut away handle, you peel, you pull, but nothing happens. Turns out the line twists include your risers, and the pressure is so high, you can't get your cutaway cable out of the housings, becuase they are twisted up in the risers. Now you can't cut away with your handle, what do you do?
I'd like to hear people's ideas on how to deal with this. When I first heard the question, I wasn't sure how to answer it. After hearing the "correct" answer so to speak, I was pretty surprised, so I thought I'd throw it out to you guys (and girls). I figure more of us are jumping hp ellipticals and even with hard inserts, we might still find ourselves in this unfortunate position.
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[freeflir29 0]

Do anything I could to cutaway. Including.....trying to manually pull the cable out, cut the 550 cord that holds the cut away cable, pull really freakin hard on the cutaway pillow, try to pull one riser down to take some of the pressure off. Fight it!!! Until 1000 feet. If I still haven't been able to cut away I'm going to deploy my reserve, pray, and look for the nearest pond! "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Now you can't cut away with your handle, what do you do?

I first dealt with this through prevention - i had hard inserts installed in my risers. They SHOULD prohibit this malfunction from ever happening.
Missy Nelson dealt with this problem by dumping her reserve. The deploying reserve stopped the main from spinning, and took the preasure off her risers. Then she chopped her main and kicked out of her reserve line twists.
I think the only debate is what happens between these two extremes, and a lot of this depends on altitude. Cutting one of the loops that anchors the three rings isn't a bad idea. You'd only have to cut one, because then the twists would unwind and you could normally cuttaway the second. However, if you're spinning on your side I would think this would be nearly impossible to do, and I'd hate to think how much altitude I might burn attempting this.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
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[Remster 30]

Quote

Cutting one of the loops that anchors the three rings isn't a bad idea

Good luck....
You've got bad line twists, you've been spun around with high Gs, your risers may actually be twisted behind your neck, and your plan is to get your knife and cut that little pice of line which you need to strain your neck to see with your rig on on the ground???
Remster
Muff 914

[freeflir29 0]

Hey...I didn't say it would be easy.....just that I might think about trying it. Watch thine altitude and at 1000 feet you are passing into VERY unsafe cut away territory anyway. Nothing left to do but pull the reserve at that point. It's gonna be like a box of chocolates after that....
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[LawnDart21 0]

Well the answer I was given, altitude permitting of course, is grab your hook knife, (say it's in your left hand), grab the right sider riser in your free hand (your right hand in this example), then cut the left riser/ring loop on the front of the riser just above the small ring. (I guess that is one of the prime reasons for the nubby hook at the end of the knife, to fit in that gap created by the loop and ring). Then as you fall away from the left riser, you are already holding onto the right riser, so you don't have to go looking for it, cut the right loop, then pull the reserve. Sounds like a lot to do, but hey, again, assuming altitude is available, it would make sense to free your self from yoru main before firing your reserve into it. Of course, bottomline, the more fabric over your head the better, so if it ain't working, firing a reserve into an open and spinning main, is better than not firing it at all I guess.
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[diverdriver 5]

This actually happened to Missy Nelson. Roger Nelson's daughter. She was in Eloy and jumping a Velocity Tiny. She tried cutting away and got way low without being able to. So she just went for dumping the reserve. It rapped her and she grabbed the free bag and through it. It deployed clean and once the tension was off she was able to cutaway the main canopy. Landed safe but shaken. Missy is no slight girl. She works out and has some muscles.
Golden Rule of skydiving. NEVER GIVE UP.
Chris

[billvon 2,998]

>Well the answer I was given, altitude permitting of course, is grab your hook
> knife, (say it's in your left hand), grab the right sider riser in your free hand (your
> right hand in this example), then cut the left riser/ring loop on the front of the
> riser just above the small ring.
While that might work, I think it would be easier to circumcise a lion as he was trying to eat you. A spinning mal generally does not allow the precision you need to get a hook knife "between" anything, and the odds of cutting something else instead (like your harness or reserve risers) is pretty high. You might be able to cut through the risers themselves, although that's tough because you will likely encounter the cutaway cable with your knife. Cutting just the front riser may turn the mal from a spinner into a streamer, though, which is an easier mal to deal with.
-bill von

[gale 0]

This same mal happened to a friend of mine and that's what she did too. She tried to cutaway twice and couldn't, so she pulled her reserve. Then she cutaway after her reserve was out. I not sure of the physics of this kind of thing but it seems to me that deploying your reserve while spinning and then NOT having things all ball up together getting worse is just luck. We're all glad she's lucky. She's having hard housing installed in her risers now because as someone said this should prevent this from happening.
PS She doesn't jump a hook knife.
Gale
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[GrumpySmurf 0]

The Easiest Solution....
Prevention....
Large 3 Ring Release.
Proper Maintenance Cycle on 3-Ring Release.
Hard Riser Housings.
Learning to Deploy Stable and Symmetical.
Selecting a canopy that you can stay ahead of and one that is not prone to spin up.
Break the 'chain' on the ground and the only plan 'B' that you should ever have is your basic emergency procedure they taught you on Day 1.

[hobbes4star 0]

go for my hook knife. with one hand grab lines with other cut lines. would much rather pay for new lines than die.
"great achievement comes only at great risk" the Dalai Lama

[PhreeZone 20]

Try this on the ground once.... hang in the hanging harness with line twists to the risers and try to cut the lines or even where the lines are when some one is moving and tossing you around with the twists....
Prevention is better then anything else....
Drop the tube...DROP the tube...

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I'm with Phree on this, hence I have hard riser cutaway channels.........And a very easy to operate looped cutaway handle.
Cya
D
GR# 37
"I don't believe that kindness is a weakness"

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Try this on the ground once.... hang in the hanging harness with line twists to the risers and try to cut the lines or even where the lines are when some one is moving and tossing you around with the twists...."
Someone throwing you around in a hanging harness is not the same as spinning line twists. I recently had spinning line twists on a Siletto 97 on an intentional cutaway jump. I could have easily grabbed my hook knife and cut a riser. This almost became a real option as it was a very hard cutaway, even with a loop for a handle. The spinning was smooth and uniform, although fast. I was on my back and could still lift my head to look at the canopy, of course this will not always be possible with spinning line twists. A better simulation of spinning line twists would be to release one brake after opening and ride the spiral. This obviously doesn't include being on your back, but is a better simulation.
If I couldn't cutaway from spinning line twists I would attempt to use my hook knife unless I got too low, then fire my reserve. I would have only myself to blame for: 1) being in that situation, and 2) if I couldn't fix it.
I religiously (every 30 days) maintain my 3-rings and cutaway cables and I recently added hard housings inserts to my risers.
Hook

[rhino 0]

I grab the hook knife and start cutting away!!!!!!!!
Or for preventive maint install a hard housing for the risers and the cutaway cable on the risers?
Blue Skies .....

[rgoper 0]

i'm a reserve deploying mofo here guys. in my opinion, your spinning already, (and let's say your deployment is 2500' AGL, so you've got roughly 18-20 seconds to make the right decision) so the chances of your spring loaded pilot chute from you reserve going into your main is slim, BUT can happen. i'd deploy my reserve, it probably won't inflate, i'll have to shake it to get it inflated, after that, i'd cut away my main and ride "plan b" to the ground. i honestly don't think you can cut away all of the lines with a knife in time, (what if you drop your knife? time is a BIG factor here, once you initiate a plan, your "burning daylight") if you can, you'll turn a spinner into a streamer, after that, the oncoming events will be double-time....then what? but, i'm in agreement that the best plans for action are on the ground, with proper gear selection, maintenance, etc...this particular mal should never have to be dealt with, but again, this is in a perfect world, one we all know doesn't exist.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[polarbear 1]

***i honestly don't think you can cut away all of the lines with a knife in time, (what if you drop your
knife? time is a BIG factor here, once you initiate a plan, your "burning daylight") ***
If you are going to attempt to "fix" or better a bad situation, you MUST keep your eye on the altimeter. My plan would be to try and cut the lines...I have 18" risers (with hard inserts; hopefully this won't happen); reaching the lines is no problem for me. A sharp hook knife should cut through a bunch of tensioned lines with relative ease...assuming you can fit that bunch into the mouth of the hook!
How many of you guys routinely check your knives to see that they are in good condition?
At 1000', I would deploy the reserve and face the challenge of two canopies out...hopefully it would be simpler and/or I would be luckier.

[MrHixxx 0]

I have a soft loop cutaway, so I can get a ton of leverage for a cutaway. I have also cut the excess cable down so only about a 2 in. piece stashes in the riser. So, it is a highly unlikely scenario for me. I have a hook knife if I am high enough to chop it and the 2 balls of shit option if I am too low.
-Hixxx
"Woman... Wu -mon... Whoa - man! She stole my heart and my cat"

[ernokaikkonen 0]

> My plan would be to try and cut the lines...I have 18" risers (with hard inserts;
>hopefully this won't happen); reaching the lines is no problem for me.
I'm with billvon on this one, I think cutting the front riser(s) would be a better option. I have not tried cutting a bunch of lines under tension, so I don't know how easily they could be cut(and how easy is it to cut spectra compared to vectran compared to HMA, or something else?). However, a (sharp) hook-knife cuts through loaded riser-webbing like a hotknife through butter.
After cutting the riser(s), I'd have the options of cutting away(altitude permitting), or deploying my reserve in to the streamer, which I _feel_ would have a better chance of success than deploying into a spinner.
Erno

[polarbear 1]

At first, I agreed with the idea of cutting a riser. But then I got thinking...if we are dealing with twists so severe that the risers are twisted, that means you will probably have to cut all four at once. This may or may not be possible with the hook knives most of us use.
In any case, I would try to cut something. Risers or lines, the effect would be the same, assuming you were successfull...turn the spinner into a streamer, then chop it and deploy the reserve.

[pilotdave 0]

I'd probably hit the ground real hard, stand up, shake myself off, then wake up from the nightmare. My canopy doesn't go all crazy with line twists! Dave
http://www.skydivingmovies.com

[jhus 0]

I challenge you to find anyone who has really had the opportunity to cut away from diving line twists from a normal deployment altitude (under 3500'). Your parachute first has to go throught the deployment sequence and you need to recognize there is a problem. After you recognize there is a problem you need to decide that this problem is definately not fixable. Next you perform cutaway procedures, but the cutaway handle isn't moving. Concentrate on pulling pillow, but it still doesn't move. If you are truly in a diving spin, you are now well below 2000' feet. To use a hook knife you now need to grab the knife and decide what to cut. But you can't cut all of the lines, so after you cut something (and you will probably try cutting your finger off mistaking it for a riser), well now you still need to cut away from the remaining mess. If you still can't pull your pillow, you now have given your reserve very little altitude to try and work around the trailing main. The reserve will usually open with a trailing main, but chances are better the more altitude it has.
I say if you want to try and do something until decision altitude, you continue trying to pull your cutaway pilow while watching your altimeter. Trying to grab risers and use a hook knife while concentrating on your malfunction seems like an easy way to completely lose track of altitude.
jhus..

[jsaxton 0]

Try to pull the cut-away 2 more times. Then deploy the reserve (and hope).

[cmgolden 0]

From last weekend. :)
http://4way.org/files/cutaway.wmv

[Iflyme 0]

After 2 good tries with the red handle, I'd pull my reserve. I wouldn't want to be farting around trying to figure out what to cut while burning up altitude...