Scared myself a little

[jncoughlin 0]

Last Wednesday I finished AFF (yayyyyy). Anyway, I deployed at about 5200 ans was in the saddle around 4500. Since I had plenty of altitude I decided to "explore the performance of the big PD280 student rig". I buried the right toggle and started a spin. All of a sudden the chute surged and the next thing I knew I had a half dozen line twists and I was spinning!

As a dumb student my first thought was CHOP! The a quick look at the alti and I realized I could probably deal with it. Which of course I did.

Had I been this dumb at 1500 ft. it could have been alot worse.

Lesson learned. Even student gear can get you in trouble if you go looking. Now I know.

[AndyMan 7]

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Had I been this dumb at 1500 ft. it could have been alot worse.

Not a bad story... and going to the handles first, then deciding against it is nice way to approach it. You don't want to screw around trying to fix it THEN decide you need the handles only to find yourself too low.

I did the same thing just over a month ago, except I did it under a heavily loaded stileto, and I did it under a thousand feet. I also went straight for the handles, but I could feel that canopy starting to come out of the spin, so I didn't chop.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Did the same thing on my Hornet 170 a couple of weeks ago - I forgot how easy it is to do it. Lots of fun kicking out twists when the canopy is starting to spin

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[matttrudeau 0]

Most people will make this mistake right off student status. They get under a smaller canopy and they yank down on the toggle and it just spins right up. You need to feel out the canopy well before you just pull one of the toggles all the way down. Have fun!

[Skyrose7 0]

geez, I didn't know student gear had that capability. I used to crank on those spins. Then, as my dz owner had previously warned me about not to do once I got my own gear, I cranked down the toggle and got some real good twists (without realizing how far down I had it), but got out of them. After I got the twists out I thought "oh yeah, he did say not to go down all the way for a spin." I sure won't be doing that again.

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The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[freeflir29 0]

SMOOTH control inputs!!! Don't go yanking on any controls. It will only help if you learn to make smooth controlled inputs. Do you turn your car by suddenly yanking the wheel to the left? No....don't do that to your parachute either!!!

[cloud9 0]

I'm not sure how you guys do this. I've jumped Manta's, Falcon 265, Raider 220, Triathlon 175, Heatwave 150, stiletto 150, and stiletto 135 the 135 loaded at about 1.55 and none of those canopies would do this. I could make a hard toggle turn and then turn in the opposite direction and it would spin up. But I could turn any of those canopies as hard as I wanted and never twisted them up on a single toggle turn. So are you turning one direction and then the other? Or did this happen by just pulling one toggle?

[AndyMan 7]

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So are you turning one direction and then the other? Or did this happen by just pulling one toggle?

When I did it on my stileto loaded at 1.55, I went from straight and level flight quickly into a deep turn, with my arm fully extended downwards.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[pilotdave 0]

I've had canopies do some weird stuff to me, but haven't had that happen yet. When I was jumping PD230s, I'd end up on my back when I did really tight turns sometimes. Scared the crap out of me the first time it happened and never really figured out what was going on. A couple times I ended up getting the spring loaded pilot chute caught over the nose of the canopy. Once I'd let the toggle back up, everything was fine. The thought to cut away was definitely not a "dumb student" idea. I've read (on dropzone.com I'm sure) that "induced" linetwists can be unrecoverable even on lightly loaded student canopies.

Dave

[Skyrose7 0]

when I got mine, I was intentionally doing spirals, and I held it down too long. when I let go, it was too late, I was spinning too fast and got twists.

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The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[flyhi 24]

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So are you turning one direction and then the other? Or did this happen by just pulling one toggle?

I think Clay eluded to this, also, but I bet it was a lot of input applied real fast. I have swung out pretty far on a Stilleto (loaded 1.6:1) with close to full toggle applied slowly. No line twists.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[jncoughlin 0]

It was alot of toggle input applied fast. I did not try to turn in the opposite direction.

The turn started and after maybe 90 degrees the canopy just surged forward and twisted up real good. I remember looking at the slack in the steering line as I said "oh shit" and went for the pillow. Then I went for the risers and started kicking. All over in maybe 8 seconds but enough to give me religion about smooth control inputs.

[bmcd308 0]

I did it to a Manta when I was a student, but I turned hard left first (probably 720 or better with toggle on hip) them immediately hard right (toggles passed each other just below shoulder height using smooth but quick input). I made it about 90 right before it spun up. Great thing was that the Manta still flew straight and level, even all twisted up.

BMcD...

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www.jumpelvis.com

[jfields 0]

I've never had my canopy spin into line twists like that due to my control input. It surprised me to hear someone report that on such a large canopy. I regularly bury a toggle on my Sabre 190 without that happening, sometimes doing it fairly quickly.

On my next clear & pull, I'll pay special attention to the risers and see what happens. I often spiral for 4+ continuous 360s. Maybe I'll try switching quickly to a hard spiral in the reverse direction to see if that will start up the twists. Note that I'm only considering this because I'm playing up high, with plenty of recovery/chop altitude. I wouldn't intentionally do something that might give me hideous twists without 8,000-13,000 feet beneath me.

[nws01 0]

Am I wrong in saying the reason this twisted so easily is because of an extremely low wing loading and the higher you load the canopy the less likely line twists will occur while completing fast toggle turns?

I am not saying that smaller canopies is safer in any means just asking a question.

[jfields 0]

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higher you load the canopy the less likely line twists will occur while completing fast toggle turns?

I'd think it was the opposite, but I don't jump a highly loaded canopy. It would make sense to me that the highly wingloaded canopy would be able to maneuver faster than it could pull the mass of the jumper under some circumstances.

Any of you experienced canopy gurus care to shed some light on this for us relative newbies?

Chuck, CobaltDan, etc?

[jncoughlin 0]

Nathan

My weight is 180 and with gear figure about 215 out the door. With the big PD 280 that's a wing loading of only 0.77. Winds were very light at altitude and I didn't sense any turbulence or thermals. The rig just surged and spun up real fast. I think I was too aggressive although I've done that same action on the same parachute twice before without a problem.

[nws01 0]

John,

Did Jeremy graduate you? What did he say about it?

[jncoughlin 0]

No, it ws Gatsby. They didn't see it; I was well upwind and still at 3500 feet.

I told them about it afterward. They didn't seem too surprised. Maybe I understated the severity of it. Gatsby called me on the radio to tell me I passed and "don't forget the beer".

Next time I'm there I'll talk to Jeremy about it.

[nws01 0]

John,

This happens. Gatsby was right in informing you about your beer purchases. You will be oweing a lot more beer in the next year. You might as well get a keg and have a party at you residence. Let us know the date!

[jncoughlin 0]

Done Deal

I've got a pool and a hot-tub. Maybe we can get Wendy to ..............
I've still gotta get back for my solo. Maybe Friday. I'm work busy the rest of the week.

John

[bmcd308 0]

You will definitely be able to spin it up. If at first you don't succeed, exaggerate your control inputs. Let off one toggle really quick then immediately bury the other. You'll be kicking like a Rockette.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Ducky 0]

I could make a hard toggle turn and then turn in the opposite direction and it would spin up.

This is a required manuever under the canopy control section on the A lic. proficiency card. Funny when i asked a coach about it he just grinned and said be sure to do it above 3k. He knew I had dealt w/ line twist b4 and figured the lesson would be better learned if I were suprised by them again. I was jumping a Safir 169 friggin lines looked like a Twizzler, but i got out of em.



kwak

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[jncoughlin 0]

Thanks everyone. I don't feel as stupid snd am confident I can get out of this situation if it ever happens again. More importantly I'll avoid it if at all possible.

[nws01 0]

Have you seen Jeremy's and Scott's tandem video they show all the tandem students? Scott stalls his Spectre and twists the lines up pretty good. As long as you can get out of it you are fine. Just don't do it below 2,000 feet or you could get yourself in trouble.