Line Overs and Hook Knives...

[Hooknswoop 19]

The question of weather or not it was possible, and if possible, feasible to cut the offending line in a line over malfunction on a main canopy. Then releasing the opposite brake linbe and using the rear risers to flare with

Today, I tried it. I packed my cutaway rig with a PD-170 loaded at 1.14:1 with a line over and a line twist for good measure. I have a small orange hook knife on my left leg strap, the cheapy that comes with the rig and a ripper sewn to my pants leg for back up. I deployed at about 14,500 MSL out of a King Air, taking 3-4 seconds to clear the aircraft. The PD opened hard and immediately took off in a violent spin to the left. I easily retrieved the hook knife off of my leg strap and tried to identify the correct line, which I knew to be the left steering line. After several seconds of violent spinning and still being unable to tell which line to cut, I realized it was hopeless and cutaway. I could clearly see one riser and the steering toggle but I couldn’t tell if it was the steering line causing the line over. It took about 400 ft to get belly to earth (I gauged that from looking up at the cutaway PD) and deployed my main.

Conclusions:

The idea of using a hook knife to clear a line over on a main is a bad one. This jump was done with a moderately loaded F-111, 9 cell, square canopy. A zero-P, elliptical would be even harder to accomplish the line cutting and would offer less time from the same altitude for the task as the violence of the spin would be greater and the altitude lost in each revolution would be greater.

After this experience and the violence of the spin, I think had I been able to cut the line, having the brake stowed on the opposite side would have resulted in several line twists as the canopy spun in the opposite direction. A canopy spinning in line twists with only on brake stowed may be an un-recoverable situation. To trade a line over for spinning line twists with only on brake stowed at the cost of a new steering line, having to use the rear risers to flare with, and possible canopy damage is a bad trade and may result in the reserve ride the jumper was hoping to avoid in the first place, except at much lower altitude.

I have only briefly looked the canopy over, but I didn’t notice any damage.

Hook

[PhillyKev 0]

Wow...you one crazy mutha. You might want to add to your conclusion that you were completely prepared for and anticipating this particular malfunction. I would imagine that the problem would be exacerbated when it takes you by suprise.

[billvon 2,990]

>The idea of using a hook knife to clear a line over on a main is a
>bad one.

Yep. I get the feeling that many people who have never been in a mal have sort of a skewed view of what it is. They see it as an obvious mal after their canopy opens; the mal will leave them sitting under a stable (or gently turning) canopy. They'll look up, see it, decide what to do (wait until stable? wait for it to clear? hmm) then cut away, take a fun five second delay, open their reserve, and land in the peas. And while some mals are indeed like that, the majority happen when you least expect them, and they are generally violent and confusing events. Having a simple plan (like cutting away immediately) is a very good idea; adding steps (like trying to cut a line, disconnecting your RSL before cutting away etc) isn't such a good idea.

Having said that, it's probably a good idea to try to cut the offending line on your reserve should you have a mal on it. At best it will give you a better chance at safely landing the (malfunctioning) canopy; at worst it will give you something to do.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Kevin-

You are absolutely correct. I knew it was coming, even which line. I didn'e have to keep track of altitude, within reason of course, and started in tring to cut the line immediately without really looking at the canopy.

Hook

[rgoper 0]

Hook:

i was conversing with the crew dogz at the dz the other day, and they are of the opinion the little hook knives like the one i have on my leg strap are useless, they cited the breaking of them, because there so flimsy. i'm inclined to believe them, as they are certainly more experienced in this area. would it be prudent to get a larger hook knife?

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Hooknswoop 19]

While this wasn't the most violent malfunction I've had, but it sure was damn good for PD-170 @ 1.14. Lots of "G"'s and a very fast spin. We all need to be prepared for a viloent malfunction on every skydive.

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Having said that, it's probably a good idea to try to cut the offending line on your reserve should you have a mal on it. At best it will give you a better chance at safely landing the (malfunctioning) canopy; at worst it will give you something to do.

Right, you've got the rest of your life to cut the line on a reserve line-over A reserve line-over is a whole different deal.

Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

i was conversing with the crew dogz at the dz the other day, and they are of the opinion the little hook knives like the one i have on my leg strap are useless, they cited the breaking of them, because there so flimsy. i'm inclined to believe them, as they are certainly more experienced in this area. would it be prudent to get a larger hook knife? ***

I would agree that if you really neede to use your hook knife, the little plastic orange hook knife is almost worthless. That was going to be part of my test, to see how well the little plastic thing worked and held up to real use. I didn't get to use it, so I don't know how well it would have worked.

I would recommend an aluminum hook knife or a "Jack the Ripper". I think there is even an aluminum version called the "Raptor" of the Ripper. They don't cost much and odds are you'll never need it (unless your a CReW dog and then you should own several), but an aluminim hook knife would hold up a lot better than a plastic one

Also I think it is importyant to be able to get the hook knife out with only one hand and to practice removing the hook knife under canopy every now and then. Of course don't run into someone or the ground playing with knifes under canopy

Hook

[wlie 0]

May I suggest a Benchmade Model 50 Rescue Hook (see attachment). And the handle doubles as a bottle cap opener!
Available here http://www.1sks.com/store/benchmade-model-5w-rescue-hook.html

[rgoper 0]

that little jewel looks like it's good for jumping, and "post jumping" activities!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[polarbear 1]

I have never thought it a good idea to try and clear a lineover (on a main). When you see it, chop it. Hook's little exercise is a good example of why.

Line overs are for the most part due to packing...pack carefully and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

A good quality hook knife is, in my opinion, an essential piece of gear. They aren't that expensive, either.

I see a lot of knives in the field with rusted blades. Seems like checking the blade once in a while might be a good thing.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[thrillseek 0]

I understand that the popular opinion is to just cutaway the line-overed main and go to reserve, but i have had malfunctions where i had a TON of time to curse my bad luck, my packing abilities, and even consider flying the lineover, all before i cut away....When i got on the ground from the last one, i looked on my chest strap and saw my hook knife...i sat in that field for about 5 minutes feeling stupid with myself! I think everyone should jump with a hook knife--You never know when it will come in handy

[crazy 0]

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I understand that the popular opinion is to just cutaway the line-overed main and go to reserve

This is not a popular opinion, it is the procedure to save your ass.

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When i got on the ground from the last one, i looked on my chest strap and saw my hook knife...i sat in that field for about 5 minutes feeling stupid with myself!

I sincerely hope that this thread makes you feel much better. Why would you damage your main and take a significant and useless risk when you can get good value from the money you give to your rigger? That would be really stupid!

bb
Come

[Jimbo 0]

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I sincerely hope that this thread makes you feel much better. Why would you damage your main and take a significant and useless risk when you can get good value from the money you give to your rigger? That would be really stupid!

Probably because your reserve isn't guaranteed to work any more than the main you just cut away. Remember, it's a parachute, and like all parachutes it is subject to malfunctions. That's why. Is it likely you'll be able to find the correct line and cut it, after Hook's experience it sounds doubtful.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 2,990]

>Why would you damage your main and take a significant and
> useless risk when you can get good value from the money you give
> to your rigger? That would be really stupid!

I don't think it's stupid to try provided you do not try for too long. In some cases (lines around your body) it would behoove you to get out the hook knife before you try cutting away. There are three main dangers to using a hook knife to try to "fix" your main:

1. You lose track of altitude, and realize you can't cut the offending line at 300 feet (way too late.)

2. You cut the wrong thing, like a reserve riser (very bad.)

3. You cut the correct line, but then end up very low under a canopy that you _still_ can't land (not all canopies are landable with broken/cut lines, depending on the line.)

[Cornholio 0]

If you were able to cut the offending line on your main, would it be possible just to get that one line replaced, or would you have to get the entire canopy relined ?

It is my belief that a $45 repack is much cheaper and safer than a ~$200 reline of the entire canopy or 20-40 for a rigger-replaced line.

If it were me and I encountered the same problem....GOODBYE MAIN , Hello reserve!!

Save your knife for your reserve.

- Matt

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[Jimbo 0]

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If you were able to cut the offending line on your main, would it be possible just to get that one line replaced, or would you have to get the entire canopy relined ?

I believe that you can have individual lines replaced. Any master rigger should be able to do the work.

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It is my belief that a $45 repack is much cheaper and safer than a ~$200 reline of the entire canopy or 20-40 for a rigger-replaced line.

That's only as simple as $45.00 repack if:
* You don't lose your reserve pilot chute. Those are expensive.
* You don't lose your handles. I think about $60.00 for the pair.
* You don't lose your main canopy. Believe it or not, it does happen.

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If it were me and I encountered the same problem....GOODBYE MAIN , Hello reserve!!

Remember, your reserve is subject to the same long list of malfunctions as your main. Including, as we've recently seen, tearing at the line attachment points or just plain being destroyed upon deployment.

Like Bill already mentioned, I think it's OK to fight with correcting a lineover as long as you can and do keep careful track of your altitude. My reserve isn't coming out unless I'm certain I've done everything I can do to land my main, and more importantly myself in one piece.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[michaelseddon 0]

I am told that IF you kick out of a line over mal then it could damage your canopy....doubt in ur canopy...what's 60 bucks for a reserve repack in the big scheme of things.
And also reserves aren't really likely to give you a mal just like a normal main...if you've watched a packer pack a reserve they take alot of time to actually make sure it'll open correctly.

• Quote

[Engovatov 0]

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Right, you've got the rest of your life to cut the line on a reserve line-over A reserve line-over is a whole different deal.

Is it feasible to use BASE construction tricks on a reserve? Like all this "tail" pocket, gates, VTEC vents.?

Even fully releasable steering lines? Or trimming it in such way, that is is suposed to be landed by rear risers.

Though, it is hardly needed - have not heard much about problems with reserves - unless in a two-out..

[billvon 2,990]

>Is it feasible to use BASE construction tricks on a reserve? Like all
> this "tail" pocket,

Reserves do use pockets to stow lines, although the pocket is on the freebag rather than the tail.

>gates

A tailgate is more useful on a canopy without a slider. Sliders do a good job of controlling lines on a reserve; a tailgate would be somewhat redundant.

>Even fully releasable steering lines?

Hard to do with a canopy with a slider.

>Or trimming it in such way, that is is suposed to be landed by rear
> risers.

That's hard to do with a tiny reserve. If you want a reserve that can be landed in rear risers, it's a piece of cake with a .9 to 1 reserve.

[Engovatov 0]

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That's hard to do with a tiny reserve. If you want a reserve that can be landed in rear risers, it's a piece of cake with a .9 to 1 reserve.

Fair enough.

But what about VTEC vents? Or some other trick to improve pressurization when sinking in - would be nice to have the ability to land it almost straight down, if needed. Is it feasible?

[weid14 0]

they tried vents with parafoils (accuracy jumpers, pad stompers, etc). these guys are basically coming straight down or close to it. There wasn't much of a difference in their flight characteristics, pressurization, etc. In fact, some people thought they breathed a little to much. these canopies are typically very lightly loaded also.

[polarbear 1]

My thoughts are that the number one priority in skydiving is to land safely, and the number one step to take towards accomplishing that is to get a good parachute over your head. Many malfunctions are relatively simple problems, lineovers included. You might fix them, but you can lose precious time. Yes, you can lose your handles, PC, or even main canopy, but that isn't the most likely thing to have happen and it certainly isn't the most important. I've seen ~20 cutaways in my short skydiving career and the only thing lost was 2 cutaway handles, total $60 to replace. Every one of those cutaways ended with a safe landing...I'd say that $60 was a cheap price. Remember that you still have to worry about getting to a safe landing area and possibly learning to effectively flare that low-performance piece of F-111 in your reserve container.

I guess in the end run it I would say provided you stay altitude conscious then trying to fix a problem might be a possibility. I personally believe it is not worth the chance of losing track of altitude and turning an easily suirvivable situation into a deadly one. Our gear is designed to save our lives with two simple operations...pull one handle, then the other. It won't work if you don't pull them.

But hey, I'm a rigger, I can repack my own shit for free.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"