Jimbo 0 #1 June 13, 2002 Stolen from rec.skydiving - you can read the entire thread here. I don't know who is answering this question, though I believe it is a candidate for National Director.QuoteThe question: If you could make one change in how USPA licenses experienced jumpers, what would it be and why?The answer: 1 - Replace the 2 night jumps requirement with either 2 CRW jumps where a dock took place, or 5 jumps of high performance canopy training by a rated instructor*, for the "D" license. Rationale: just compare the fatalities due to inadvertant night jumps with those due to inadvertant poor canopy handling.* a method of qualifying canopy instructors would have to be developed.This is one of the better ideas I've heard. What do you folks think?-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 June 13, 2002 I don't like the idea of dropping the night jump requirements for the D-license unless they then become a requirement for an instructor rating.Adding in CRW would be interesting.Adding in further high performance instruction from a "rated instructor" would get interesting on a couple of fronts. I'd question why that wasn't introduced earlier. I'm not talking pond swooping, but just basic insctruction, the type that is currently not being done at all.Interesting concepts, but all in all I don't really see the purpose other than to placate the folks that don't want to make night jumps.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tlshealy 0 #3 June 13, 2002 JimThe D license has always designated that a person is an 'expert' skydiver, the requirements for the license test basic skills that every jumper needs to be considered an expert, most of these skills haven't changed that much in the last 20-30 years. A person could go through a lfetime of skydiving without ever doing CRW , freeflying , or swooping a canopy, but even jumpers in these disciplines need the same basic skills to be considered an expert. I think that awards or ratings recognizing skills in different areas are great, but I believe that the D requirements are still valid.Just my $.02Tad D8142 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chief 0 #4 June 13, 2002 Call me strange, but I actually enjoyed my night jumps. Offered an entirely different perspective. I found all the hype talk of others made it sound alot more difficult then it was. Same basics applied = PULLRemeber: "Life is the only classroom with the test first, and the lesson last." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WmLauterbach 0 #5 June 13, 2002 night jumps whem conducted IAW with the BSRs are not inherently dangerous...CRW is inherently dangerous...high performance canopies are inherently dangerous...a "D" isnt required to have fun...the only thing you cant do with a "c" that you can do with a "d" is persue instructional ratings, and get a "PRO" rating...if you are going to make 'performance canopy training' and CRW requirements, why shouldnt we make a "style series" and "accuracy" approaches mandatory also...and then we can make an 'AD-A' mandatory....no "d" without jumping a board, or a birdman suit.....etc etc...the a/b/c/d isnt designed to test your skill at any given discipline, just your overall involment.... it gets dark above EVERY skydiver...some jumpers will NEVER look up and see a VX-85 above them...some people consider contact with another jumpers canopy to be an emergency situation....i agree, it sounds like somebody trying to make excuses NOT to do night jumps...just my two cents............ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #6 June 13, 2002 Uh.....you need a D-License to compete at the US Nationals. And more and more people are competing.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #7 June 13, 2002 Yup. Good point. A lot of people heading to the Nationals are needing to take the test. There's nothing wrong with night jumps. In fact, I have more night jumps than freefly, and I'd like to do more of both. I think they should increase the qualifications to 500 jumps and adding a crew class. I also believe that the accuracy requirement should be better monitored. Heck, some of the D license holders have never hit the peas! Aside from that, the D license signifies a "Master" skydiver; of course, that is subject to interpretation.SharkD-24499CCR-2113 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caseyusa 0 #8 June 13, 2002 Or why not just keep going?A....B....C.....D.........E...F...G...H...I...J...K...L...M...N..O..P....Q...R...S..T......U...V...W...X...Y....and the "Skydiving Immortal" *Z*---It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #9 June 13, 2002 >night jumps whem conducted IAW with the BSRs are not inherently dangerous...>CRW is inherently dangerous...These two statements really aren't supportable. Night solo jumps are more dangerous than normal solo jumps; you have to carry more gear, are limited in your primary sense (sight) and there are many more equipment mals to deal with (light failures.) It is _very_ hard to judge altitude when you can't see, and bad spots happen more often at night. CRW is no more inherently dangerous than RW. You can screw up both and hurt yourself; done correctly, with a coach and a student, both can be quite safe.>some people consider contact with another jumpers canopy to be an emergency> situation....If you use an AAD (and most people do nowadays) there is a large chance that you will someday have to deal with flying two canopies. It makes a lot of sense to train for that scenario.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #10 June 13, 2002 >I'm not talking pond swooping, but just basic insctruction, the type that is> currently not being done at all.It is currently covered in the ISP - check out category G and H. It's primarily done at altitude, though. You'd have to define "basic HP canopy instruction" more carefully - the ISP seems to consider the ability to make all sorts of manuevers at 1000 feet to be sufficient, but I don't think "the rhino method" really prepares someone to land a HP canopy well.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 June 13, 2002 QuoteThe D license has always designated that a person is an 'expert' skydiver, the requirements for the license test basic skills that every jumper needs to be considered an expert, most of these skills haven't changed that much in the last 20-30 years. I disagree that the requirements for someone to be considered an 'expert' haven't changed much in the past 20-30 years. As the sport progresses, as new disciplines are introduced, and more importantly as new high-performance gear and techniques are introduced requirements for 'expert' level skydivers should be raised. When is the last time the D requirements saw a significant overhaul?QuoteA person could go through a lfetime of skydiving without ever doing CRW , freeflying , or swooping a canopy, but even jumpers in these disciplines need the same basic skills to be considered an expert.Any person who's been in this sport long enough has probably done CReW, whether or not it was intentional is not for me to decide. Any person who's been in this sport long enough has been exposed, at at least some level to freeflying. Wouldn't it be helpful to know some basic safety routines when you find yourself on your back after a formation funnels? Finally, how many people out there might be better off had they received some professional instruction on high-performance canopy flight? Like it or not it's a damn good thing to know.Quoteif you are going to make 'performance canopy training' and CRW requirements, why shouldnt we make a "style series" and "accuracy" approaches mandatory also...We do. I don't have the SIM in front of me, but I seem to remember something about landing within 5 meters of the target at least 20 times. Completing the style series is an alternative to the RW requirement.The current requirements to become an 'expert' skydiver are, in my opinion, out of touch with reality.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #12 June 13, 2002 Given that a "license" is a permission to do something, the requirements should reflect that. I believe, and I'm too lazy to check, that the term "Master" is no longer used officially. Whether on not you enjoy night jumps is beside the point.The permissions granted by the "D" are: 1. compete at Nationals2. participate in certain record attempts3. go on to more advanced ratingsIf night jumps are essential for the more advanced ratings, then they should be part of that rating's requirements, not the "D" license requirement. There are no night contests at Nationals, but there are a lot of canopies in the air. It would make sense to emphasize canopy skills rather than night jumps for Nationals.I don't believe any records that require a "D" involve night jumps. Many of them involve lots of canopies in the air (like a 300 way).So, on the whole, I reckon that to be given permission to compete at Nationals and participate in record attempts, a canopy skills requirement makes a whole lot more sense than night jumps. D23151The fact that anyone enjoys night jumps is not relevant. I enjoyed mine and I have a stock of light sticks at the ready. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caseyusa 0 #13 June 13, 2002 What rating do you need to skydive into college graduation?::big grin::---It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #14 June 13, 2002 Pro Rating (10 stand up within a 3? meter circle, 500 jumps)and FAA clearence.... Demos are not something to go into lightly.And the accuracy requirment... there are a lot of people that think an Accuracy approach is just a straight in approach, but watch a Classic be sank in and you realize how steep of an AoA the canopies have. Its over 70 degrees most of the time.Try and sink a Sabre on that angle and it will probally stall on you.I'd love to see a canopy requirement. I was talking about bumping end cells with a jumper that has about 150 jumps now and he said that if I even think about flying towards him, he's turning around and going the other way. He would'nt be able to handle an accidental wrap due to poor tracking on an RW jump. Canopy collisions can happen on any jump, might as well prep people for them. How often are most people going to land in water?If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #15 June 13, 2002 >How often are most people going to land in water?More to the point, how often are most people going to jump near water? For most jumpers, pretty often. (Note that, in my mind, water training is as much how to avoid landing in water as it is how to land in water.)-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hobbes4star 0 #16 June 13, 2002 >A person could go through a lfetime of skydiving without ever doing CRW , freeflying , or swooping a canopy,<a person could also go through a lifetime of never jumping at night. "great achievement comes only at great risk" the Dalai Lama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #17 June 13, 2002 "great Achievement comes only at great risk" the Dalai LamaGood choice on the quote Hobbes. Let's face it, the entire skydiving sport is inherently dangerous. Hell you can get maimed walking across the landing area.Whatever requirements we want to see, we can. Vote on it, petition the USPA. We are a self governing sport are we not? Majority rules here.My personal opinion:1) Canopy training? Good idea. I feared a canopy wrap or collision so I went and did CRW until I felt comfortable. At the time I had NO desire to actually do CRW and did not see what the DOGS were all hooping and hollering about. What did I get out of it? Self satisfaction and a 4 stack night jump award and finding out that CRW is a blast.2) Do I know how to swoop? not really well. So it is something I work on and ask about. Would I pay for instruction? Yes, if I wanted to be really great. Same goes for Freefly. I dabble in it and want to be good. As a skydiver I owe it to myself to at least understand the principles of it and potential dangers it poses to myself and other people in the air.3) Water training? At anytime I could be faced with a water jump, cause I cannot say that all of my jumps will be at my home DZ. So I need to have that training.4) Is it possible that I accidently fall out of the jumpship at night??? Doubtful. But I am a skydiver and I should know and learn as much about the sport as possible. Night jumps are a part of that.5) Hell naked jumps are a part as well, but I don't think we will ever get a training requirement out of that one.Bottom line is that even if the requirement is not 100% practical or applicable to every skydiver, we should all be willing to expound our knowledge, broaden our horizons and try something different from what we know. None of us would have ever known how much we were going to fall (pun intended) in love with skydiving until we took that first step.I could be wrongJJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #18 June 13, 2002 Quotei agree, it sounds like somebody trying to make excuses NOT to do night jumps...That's exactly what they're trying to do. And good reason for it. I recently read about someone who has a medical condition making it difficult for them to see at night. They can't get their D license because of that one issue, even though in all other regards they are qualified. I don't understand why night jumps are required either. I plan on doing them for the experience, but I don't know what it's supposed to prove, or prepare me for.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #19 June 13, 2002 >a person could also go through a lifetime of never jumping at night. While I agree, most skydivers do _not_ go through a lifetime of never jumping after sunset. A night jump is good preparation for jumping significantly after sunset, something that most people get talked into doing once or twice in their careers.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #20 June 13, 2002 Quotea person could also go through a lifetime of never jumping at night. Ever get on the sunset load? Ever been on a load that had to hold/circle at whatever altitude for a few minutes because of traffic/ATC? I can easily see a situation where a "sunset load" can turn into damn near a night jump - I've been on some. That is why we need the night jump requirement... pull & flare,lisa"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #21 June 13, 2002 QuoteThey can't get their D license because of that one issue, even though in all other regards they are qualified. Actually I believe you can get a waiver if you suffer from a medical condition that makes it difficult for you to see at night.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #22 June 13, 2002 QuoteI recently read about someone who has a medical condition making it difficult for them to see at night. They can't get their D license because of that one issue, even though in all other regards they are qualified.Restricted licenses are available for people who have disabilities. See the SIM, in the license section...pull & flare,lisa"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cptnstratn 0 #23 June 13, 2002 Actually, as long as you're not competing in the "Open" class at Nationals, all you need is the "C" license.(Just checked the SCM)Blue Skies,Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbrasher 1 #24 June 14, 2002 I had to do a water jump to get my 'D' (was required many years ago). I don't have any problem with dropping that requirement but I'd like to see the CRW requirement added.Also 300 jumps more :-) and maybe a birdman suit requirement. :-)If your going to be called a MASTER you ought to be able to master it. Night jumps are a good thing to require.Don't restrict your outlook, enlarge it.Red, White and Blue Skies,John T. Brasher D-5166 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #25 June 14, 2002 <<<>A person could go through a lfetime of skydiving without ever doing CRW , freeflying , or swooping a canopy,<a person could also go through a lifetime of never jumping at night. >>>Indeed - the onset of night is highly predictable. More predictable than most things, in fact. Anyone that finds themselves **accidentally** landing at night is a moron. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
