Too early to jump a 149?

[SatchFan 0]

I weigh 135 pounds, have 40 jumps (A license). The smallest canopy I have jumped so far has been a 190. Landings have been great. I just bought my own rig that has an Omega 149 in it. I plan on jumping a 170 at least a couple of times first, but am I pushing it too quickly? I don't want to hurt myself but I really want to jump my own shit!
"Death smiles upon everybody, all a man can do is smile back"
~Jason

[billvon 2,991]

>I plan on jumping a 170 at least a couple of times first, but am I pushing it
> too quickly?
As long as your skills are up to the new canopy, then no. To make sure they are, make sure you can do the following on the 170 before you try to downsize:
-Land with rear risers
-High performance landing with double fronts and front riser turns
-Flat turn; be able to turn at least 90 degrees at 100 feet without diving at the ground
-Flare turn; be able to turn at least 45 degrees in either direction during the flare
-Land uphill and downhill
-Land in no wind and crosswind

Note that this may take more than a couple of jumps.
Once you can do all that, you should be ready for a loading a little over 1:1. Once you get the smaller canopy, start practicing that stuff on _it_. A good rule of thumb - if you get a canopy that's small enough that you are scared to do the above things on it, it's too small for your experience level.
-bill von

[canopydave 0]

Bill has some really good advice for you, Satchfan...
Practice the flat turns especially. Smaller canopies tend to be less forgiving with this manuver, but with practice it can be done safely. Practice up high though.
The one bit of advice that I did NOT take from my rigger, when buying my own gear was I went with a 150^2 canopy instead of a 170 as she wanted to see me buy (I weighed about 165 at the time.) My thought was I jumped the DZ owners 150 Spectre, 5 or 6 times without incident... Jumps number 2 and 3 on my shiny new Spectre 150, I flared a touch too low and came away with a nicely cracked tailbone that took a YEAR to heal. Even to this day it still hurts when it rains. Not too mention the grass rash on my legs... So here I am over 300 jumps later and my Spectre and I are the best of friends, but it sure was a rough start that could have been a whole lot rougher. If only I had listened, my rearend would not be such a good weather predictor...
Jump and jump hard, the skill necessary for you to fly that Omega will come quickly, but be patient and listen to your instructors!!!
Blues,
Dave
Safety in skydiving like many things, comes from the skill and expertise you employ before, during and after the jump.

[bmcd308 0]

If you have to ask...

[drenaline 0]

In case you don't know how to do some of the stuff that Bill said, you can go to the swoop and canopy control forum and do some reading on the "how to flare" thread.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[DanG 1]

I have to disagree that people with forty jumps should be learning how to do high performance landings with front riser turns. This type of maneuver takes hundreds of jumps to learn correctly, and is extremely dangerous.
I also don't see the need for someone who is not going to land their canopy aggressively to learn how to do it. I certainly think everyone should be familiar with all the control inputs on their canopy, but you don't need to learn how to land using front risers in order to learn how to turn with front risers.
I can't see a scenario where a beginning skydiver is going to accidently find themselves with a front riser in their hand at 200 feet and knowing how to swoop might save their life.
Otherwise, I agree that these skills should be learned under proper supervision.
- Dan G

[PhillyKev 0]

Along the lines of what DanG has said, what about the "-Land with rear risers"?
I personally have never tried this or seen anyone try it so can't personally comment on the risks involved. The article about swoop survival in this months parachutists has a statement regarding this. I don't have it in front of me so this isn't an exact quote but it was similar to this:
Rear riser landings are dangerous and should not be done intentionally unless you are very experienced on that specific canopy and have practiced this at altitude for "literally hundreds of jumps" before attempting it close to the ground.
The "hundreds of jumps" part is a direct quote as I recall.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[PhreeZone 20]

Rear riser swoops are dangerous, A rear riser flare is less dangerous, but still requirtes practice at altitude. Big difference between the 2.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[billvon 2,991]

>I have to disagree that people with forty jumps should be learning how to do high
> performance landings with front riser turns. This type of maneuver takes
> hundreds of jumps to learn correctly, and is extremely dangerous.
I agree; however, I think it is important to a) start working on it as soon as possible (and as soon as is safe) and b) it is a skill they should master _before_ they downsize.
>I also don't see the need for someone who is not going to land their
>canopy aggressively to learn how to do it.
I disagree completely. We are seeing literally a dozen people a year get killed by doing something stupid under canopy, generally initiating a turn way too low for their canopy to recover. The reason they do this is they have zero experience turning low to the ground, and thus when they are cut off at 50 feet they use a simple toggle turn to avoid them. After all, why not? It's the only way they know how to turn, and the only way they've ever practiced.
To overcome this, people have to learn to turn their canopies near the ground, both with their toggles and their risers. Learning to do a high performance landing gives you this experience and, perhaps more importantly, lets you have fun without downsizing, on a canopy you can fly well.
>I can't see a scenario where a beginning skydiver is going to accidently find
> themselves with a front riser in their hand at 200 feet and knowing how to swoop
> might save their life.
Here's one. They start on a Manta, then immediately get a Sabre 150, loaded at 1.2 to 1. They are terrified by it, and do nothing but land straight in for 50 jumps - after all, their friends are telling them "Don't turn near the ground! You'll die!"
After 100 jumps, their landings have all been fine, but they are getting sick of the measly 20 foot planeout. They get a Stiletto 135. After all, their past 50 jumps have been fine. They do 100 jumps on the Stiletto 135, then get a Stiletto 97. They still land straight in, since they are "being careful." One day they have to avoid a jumper. They turn at 100 feet and hit the ground at 40mph, killing them instantly.
The fault here was not that they downsized. The fault was that they downsized for the wrong reasons and without knowing how to fly the previous canopy. If they had learned flat turns on the Sabre, they might have saved themselves under the Stiletto - but you can't learn flat turns when you are terrified of the canopy. If they had learned front riser swoops on the Sabre, they may well have gotten decent swoops and discovered that the Sabre really _could_ perform, and they didn't need to go to the Stiletto 97 to get a 50 foot planeout.
If a jumper is never going to downsize, and can competently fly and land the canopy they are jumping, then I could see an argument for not really learning all there is to learn about their canopy. If they want to downsize, I think there is a very strong argument for learning how to fly a canopy on a larger size _before_ downsizing. Too many people are dying because they can't fly their canopies. They need to know more, not less, about how to fly them.
-bill von

[billvon 2,991]

>Rear riser landings are dangerous and should not be done intentionally unless
>you are very experienced on that specific canopy and have practiced this at
> altitude for "literally hundreds of jumps" before attempting it close to the ground.
Exactly. Downsizing to a canopy you are not ready for is even more dangerous. Take the time, learn how to fly your canopy in all regimes, then learn rear riser landings when you're ready. _Then_ downsize. Do not try to downsize first then learn rear riser landings - that's even more dangerous.
-bill von

[rhino 0]

GOD DAMNIT!!!
If you even ask the question is is too early!!! shit!!
People use your heads!!!
Blue Skies .....

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

GOD DAMNIT!!!
If you even ask the question is is too early!!! shit!!
People use your heads!!!

When you're dealing with someone new to the sport who doesn't have the requisite knowledge or experience than this blanket statement is invalid. And as much as I agree and respect Bill and everything he shares with us, I disagree that you should never downsize until you have drained every last bit of performance out of a canopy.
Before I start getting flamed, here me out. For the most part, and when you're talking about getting into what is considered "advanced experience" wingloading, I agree that don't downsize unless you can do anything and everything on your existing canopy. But this is too generic a statement for newer jumpers (of which I am one).
Am I supposed to stay on the Manta 288 loaded at 0.76:1 until I can do front riser landings? I could do chin ups all day on the front risers of that and what good is that going to do me? All new jumpers need to downsize from the student size or they'll never even have the opportunity to practice some of these things because they're simply physically impossible.
So..back to the original poster, if you add 20lbs for gear, he's talking about downsizing to a 1.04:1 in a step down progression and he has 40 jumps. Seems to me he's taking the conservative, safe approach.
Let me ask the question....what wingloading would you recommend for a newer jumper off of student status to learn the techniques described above? My guess is teh 0.81:1 wingloading he's on now won't even allow him to pull down a front riser without lifting himself in the harness.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[rhino 0]

Simple concept that needs to be adopted here.. If YOU don't have enough experience and or confidence in your heart of hearts to go to the next level then don't!!
I asked NO ONES opinion on whether or not I was ready for a canopy loaded at 1.85 at 300 jumps. I have the training, preparation and confidence in my own head to not doubt myself. I KNOW what I can do under canopy to the point that I don't need to ask anyone do you think I am ready?
I inquired to hook about flight of the canopy and did my homework. I am very carefull. But I don't doubt myself.
Doubting yourself while downsizing will kill you...
Like Hook said,, You don't want every landing to be an exercise of survival getting in over your head..
For God's sake.. Honestly... Even posting is it too early spells self doubt.. self doubt leads to panicking.. panicking leads to bad decisions and death..
If HONESTLY you aren't ready.. And EVERYONE REALLY knows in their brain if they can handle it. Don't do it.. If there is any doubt just go bigger..
I'm done here...
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[billvon 2,991]

>Am I supposed to stay on the Manta 288 loaded at 0.76:1 until I can do front
>riser landings?
No; in fact, I recommend you get off the Manta pretty quickly because it's so slow you can learn bad habits on it. I should have clarified that above. The "ideal" first canopy is, to me, a Triathalon or Sabre loaded at about .9 to 1. At these loadings you still have a very wide margin for error, but you can begin to learn front riser landings, flat turns etc. From then on, you can really start to learn.
Does this mean you can't learn anything under a Manta? Not at all. For example, it is an excellent time to try rear riser landings and steep approaches - these are easy under such a large canopy.
>My guess is teh 0.81:1 wingloading he's on now won't even allow him to pull
>down a front riser without lifting himself in the harness.
Well, I don't think that's true. If your exit weight is 160 lbs, you are loading the risers of your Manta with 160 lbs divided four ways (four risers.) If you jump a VX79, you are loading your risers - 160 lbs divided four ways. Some canopies have high front riser pressure and some have low, but it will never, ever exceed your weight.
That being said, between .8 to 1 and 1 to 1 is probably a good loading to start learning to fly at. As with everything else, there's no one perfect answer. If your loading is .7 to 1, get to a .9 to 1 as quickly as you can; if it's .85 to 1, maybe spending a little more time on that, then going to a 1:1, might be a better plan.
-bill von

[PhillyKev 0]

I just wonder how a big ego, or inflated confidence equates to skill? (I'm not implying that applies to you, but your blanket statement would equate to that).
If someone is new, and hasn't downsized enough to even experience a performance increase how would they know what to expect? That's like telling someone who never did a sit jump and asked a friend if they were ready that they're automatically not because they asked. If you don't know what the changes will be, how could you even guess as to what will be different about it.
You could take your statement even farther and say that if someone is worried about their first jump, they shouldn't jump. I'd say if someone wasn't worried that's a much better reason that they shouldn't.
Flaming someone for asking a legitimate question is just counterproductive. Personally, I think a 1:1 loading is SAFER for newer jumpers than the massive behemoths I learned on. My only injury was under a Manta 288 because the thing lost pressurization about 20 feet off the ground due to its lightening quick 2mph forward speed.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[billvon 2,991]

>But I don't doubt myself.
Self confidence can be just as much a killer as self doubt. In many cases, it is far more dangerous. I think the day I stop questioning my own skill and preparation on every jump will be the day I stop jumping.
>People use your heads!!!
I very much hope you take your own advice.
-bill von

[PhillyKev 0]

Thanks, Bill, that was the kind of info I was looking for. So to clarify for Jason who asked the question originally, would your recommendation be to jump a 170 until he is confident he's mastered the basic skills you described before downsizing to his 149 that he's already purchased? That would put him right around a .9:1 wingloading on the 170.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[billvon 2,991]

>would your recommendation be to jump a 170 until he is confident he's
>mastered the basic skills you described before downsizing to his 149 that he's
>already purchased?
Depending on what kind of 170 it was (i.e. as long as it's not a Stiletto, and as long as it's either ZP or pretty new F111) yes.
-bill von

[weid14 0]

Kev -- Marc Norman and Heath both routinly land in rear risers. I think Marc is on a Stiletto and I know Heath is on a velocity. I think Dannny does some rear riser stuff to on landing, but those two are the only one's I've noticed doing it as a mater of routine. Watch what they do -- I'm a prety visula learner, if I can see someone doing something, I can mimick it pretty good, if you're the same way study what they are doing and ask them about how they are timing going to toggles. there's one camera guy in DeLand who never uses toggles to land, just rear risers -- I asked if he ever used the toggles and he said "nope, never on a regular landing".

[TALONSKY 0]

About 10 months ago I talked to Icarus and they said that the Omega's and Safire's were measured about 10% off of PD products. I know my 169 Safire is about 150-155 sq ft compared to a Sabre. Your Omega should measure 135-130 sq ft compared to PD products.
Just thought you should know.
Kirk

[Engovatov 0]

>Some canopies have high front riser pressure and some have low, but it will never, ever exceed your weight.
...unless you pull some serious "g"'s carving a turn that is..

[rhino 0]

Sorry all.. Maybe I over reacted a little.. I'm just tired of people getting hurt..
Blue Skies .....

[billvon 2,991]

>...unless you pull some serious "g"'s carving a turn that is..
Well, keep in mind that if you do pull G's, your weight increases at the same time the front riser pressure does, so the riser pressure still won't exceed your weight (even though you may weigh twice what you normally do.)
-bill von

[billvon 2,991]

>Your Omega should measure 135-130 sq ft compared to PD products.
This is no longer true; they switched to a PD scheme of measuring things several months ago. So as if things weren't confusing enough, an old Safire 149 is about the same size as a new Safire 135.
-bill von

[TALONSKY 0]

I was under the impresion that the Omni and Safire 2 were measured to the PD standard. Do you know when if they did change measuring styles on Safire's and Omega's if it was done prior to the 2nd geration canopies( Omni and Safire 2)?
Thanks
Kirk