tsf 0 #1 April 14, 2013 I have the recent Zhills incident still in mind, but I'm just wondering why there isn't an AAD manufacturer that allows programmable firing altitude (other than trying to do some sort of offset by turning it on at a different altitude than your DZ)? The firing altitude adjustment I'm talking about would only allow increasing it for the more conservative/cautious jumpers. I know that there is a cypress "student" mode, but I believe that doesn't apply for terminal malfunctions. I would have thought that this would be an obvious feature as there must be a number of jumpers that religiously avoid pulling low or don't do low hop & pops or high performance canopy maneuvers, so they'd want to set their AAD to fire at, say, 1500-2000 feet to err on the side of caution. Maybe it's just a dumb question and I shouldn't put too much weight into the recent Zhills incident. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience, so I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is something obvious that I'm just not thinking of... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #2 April 14, 2013 read a few more posts and this question will be redundantYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #3 April 14, 2013 Quotebut I'm just wondering why there isn't an AAD manufacturer that allows programmable firing altitude There is: The new CYPRES has this feature I am told. What makes you think it will solve, or for that matter, even help the problem? What evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open? Perhaps the manufacturers of these rigs should be required to publically post, or at least inform the public, of the results of their performance testing for this mode of failure. If they would post these results you would have the knowledge to properly set your new adjustable AAD. Until then you are just guessing. Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #4 April 14, 2013 Quote Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far. IMO, this is a sad indictment on the reliability of our gear.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,364 #5 April 15, 2013 Hi John, QuoteWhat evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open? The scuttlebutt that I heard in Daytona was that both free bags were found in trees near the bodies. If true, then 250 ft or so would have been another two AAD saves. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #6 April 15, 2013 QuoteThe scuttlebutt that I heard in Daytona was that both free bags were found in trees near the bodies. I heard the same thing. What I want to know is how they were hanging in the trees, were or are there any marks on them. Maybe the trees pulled the free bag out of the container. On the other hand they could have landed there as apparantly did the one in NJ. A third reason could be complete line strip and bag dump leaving the canopy in the tray as happened several years ago at the Nationals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 137 #7 April 15, 2013 QuoteMaybe the trees pulled the free bag out of the container. On the other hand they could have landed there as apparantly did the one in NJ. A third reason could be complete line strip and bag dump leaving the canopy in the tray as happened several years ago at the Nationals. The first would be particularly likely if they were found entangled in the trees immediately above each jumper. The last scenario seems unlikely, because it would have to had to occur on two jumpers simultaneously; each wearing completely different styles of rigs. But in any event, I think the speculation has probably gone as far as it can (although I think it has been very useful and educational). Now we need facts. It sure would be useful to get a summary from someone who has seen the video and/or the AAD data. Anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #8 April 15, 2013 All Cypres 2's maintained or manufactured after Jan 13 have this feature. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #9 April 15, 2013 Quote All Cypres 2's maintained or manufactured after Jan 13 have this feature. All 20 of them.But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #10 April 15, 2013 Can somebody tell me the emergency procedure in a plane load of skydivers, when the offset feature has been implimented, and the aircraft suddenly dives? I think the procedure should be to reach around your back and grab your reserve and hang on to it. Or perhaps everyone should grab everyone elses reserve, kinda like a conga line?? Hey, can anyone tell me how to shut off, quickly, my adhd if it's not readily accesable??? Like do I have to fully take off my rig to reach it?? Like I have said on multiple posts in the past if you actually have to use this thing (AAD's) your nuts! All this reliance on AAD's has done,.. is to create a skydiving public that is dulisional and living in some kind of fantasy land. This is why this issue is so heavaley debated and full of emotion! It's kind of like this: The USPA is contimplating raising the min opening altitudes. Might be a good thing! Now what happens??? How can we make money off of this??? Well lets add a new feature to our AAD's, PEOPLE WILL FEEL BETTER! Will it actually do anything? By the way: Just how dangerous are 2 outs? I mean after you have left the aircraft? Are there more no pulls as compared with 2 out fatals? I want to say that it has not gone unnoticed that everyone here wan'ts to do everything they can to have a zero fatality sport, this has not gone unnotice and is gratly appreciated!!! Many who read these threads don't understand this, they think this is just endless debate without end, this is not endless debate without end,it is an attempt to save 30 - 40 people each year! And the way 2013 is going it is going to be more than 40! And that sucks!But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #11 April 15, 2013 even if you have an older model of cypres - dz offset mode allows you to set a different firing mode for ONE jump that is. biut as john sherman said: why would you think that this feature solves more problems than it will creata in the long(er) run????The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #12 April 15, 2013 Quote even if you have an older model of cypres - dz offset mode allows you to set a different firing mode for ONE jump that is. biut as john sherman said: why would you think that this feature solves more problems than it will creata in the long(er) run???? Well meaning? Here we go: another skydiver using the word "OFFSET" and raising altitude in the same sentence. See some of my other posts,... Somebody please send this to the ADHD manufacturers... And this isn't an issue???????But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #13 April 15, 2013 >Can somebody tell me the emergency procedure in a plane load of skydivers, >when the offset feature has been implimented, and the aircraft suddenly dives? If it is the result of a wing falling off? Bail out and open your reserve. If the pilot is just descending for some reason? (weather, engine out etc) Sit tight and don't move around. >Hey, can anyone tell me how to shut off, quickly, my adhd if it's not readily accesable? You generally can't. >Like I have said on multiple posts in the past if you actually have to use this thing >(AAD's) your nuts! I know at least one guy who had to use it; he was not nuts. I'm glad he had once since he's still here. >All this reliance on AAD's has done,.. is to create a skydiving public that is >dulisional and living in some kind of fantasy land. ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #14 April 16, 2013 QuoteQuotebut I'm just wondering why there isn't an AAD manufacturer that allows programmable firing altitude There is: The new CYPRES has this feature I am told. What makes you think it will solve, or for that matter, even help the problem? What evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open? Perhaps the manufacturers of these rigs should be required to publically post, or at least inform the public, of the results of their performance testing for this mode of failure. If they would post these results you would have the knowledge to properly set your new adjustable AAD. Until then you are just guessing. Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far. Your posts are getting ridiculous, John. Everyone's heard it before. And for the sake of entertainment, why don't you enlighten us about the 8 "problem" rigs. Brands, models, specific problems you have uncovered with each. That sort of thing. After all, shouldn't a manufacturer be required to publicly post the specifics of any performance issues found in competing rigs?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 April 17, 2013 Actually John speaks a lot of sense. He's a bit intense some of the time, but who isn't?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #16 April 17, 2013 same here.....to the previous post..... "Your posts are getting ridiculous, John. Everyone's heard it before." Chuck - You speak for yourself! I appreciate John's comments, incite and history. You are not the one to monitor comments....Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #17 April 17, 2013 Quote Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far. 8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #18 April 17, 2013 >8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents. Good point. There is more to gear safety (and functionality) than the design of a rig, although that surely affects it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #19 April 17, 2013 Quote>8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents. Good point. There is more to gear safety (and functionality) than the design of a rig, although that surely affects it. I wish we had more information about all of the incidents. I was giving some credence towards the "small overstuffed container" theory until this last one, which included a student rig. They don't generally fall into that category. Sure would be easier if all the information was known and collated."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #20 April 18, 2013 Quote>8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents. Good point. There is more to gear safety (and functionality) than the design of a rig, although that surely affects it. So, at least 8 different rigs. Does anybody know if they all used the same reserve canopy (I mean design, we know they used different sizes)? Does anybody know if they all had the same AAD?"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #21 April 19, 2013 You can adjust the firing altitude of a Vigil II. See the manual and "altitude correction".- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #22 April 19, 2013 As was just posted and to simply answer your question. The Vigil can be set to fire higher than factory setting - (150 feet increments). And the higher setting will be automatically defaulted everytime you turn on the device. This can be set in the field by the user and it's designed so that you can't do it accidently. Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. .Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gregpso 1 #23 April 19, 2013 QuoteHi John, QuoteWhat evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open? The scuttlebutt that I heard in Daytona was that both free bags were found in trees near the bodies. If true, then 250 ft or so would have been another two AAD saves. JerryBaumchen What he saidI tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gregpso 1 #24 April 19, 2013 NO one has ever explained (to me anyway) why AAD firing cannot be raised to 1000 feet. It may or may not have made a difference on this occasion.. but I am tipping it would have. Send some more abusive PMs I get off on them.(not really but I am used to them) I would have thought simple logic.. may be a problem with AADs firing too late answer increase height. anything else I can help you with. (Joke)I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 479 #25 April 19, 2013 Quote NO one has ever explained (to me anyway) why AAD firing cannot be raised to 1000 feet. It may or may not have made a difference on this occasion.. but I am tipping it would have. Send some more abusive PMs I get off on them.(not really but I am used to them) I would have thought simple logic.. may be a problem with AADs firing too late answer increase height. anything else I can help you with. (Joke) Greg, quite simply there is a tolerance and allowance on any aad firing altitude. They already fire between 750 and 1000 ft. Raising it another 250ft means it would be 1000 to 1250. On formation skydivers it's not uncommon to be.pitching at 2000 ft, as a result the chance of an unwanted AAD fire increases. You need to see the whole picture, we trade off safety for fun all the time. If we wanted to be totally safe we wouldn't jump just post about it on dz.comExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
