Starting freeflying too soon

[skreamer 1]

This is something I have noticed more and more : people starting freeflying with very few jumps to their name. In the UK they have a requirement that you must have your FS1 license (basic formation skydiving skills) before you can start freeflying. This is flat 2, 3 and then a 'graduation' 4-way. If you don't have the skills to do this then what makes you think you would be any better at freeflying? Also, with the added dangers of freeflying (faster and *3-dimensional*) doesn't it make sense to get a bit of experience before starting freeflying?
Now somebody is probably going to say you can't set numbers or a hard and fast rule blah blah blah BUT there is no substitute for experience. Is this the same as people downsizing their canopies too quickly? Wanting to do everything they see all the kewl people doing and wanting to do it NOW?
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Wanting to do everything they see all the kewl people doing and wanting to do it NOW?"
Thats about it in my opinion.....
On getting confidence in belly flying, this is a good way to build awareness, and confidence amongst other jumpers, without the risk of higher speeds involved in FF.
FF isn't just about head down, more and more people are incoprporating belly flying into their FF routines at competition level. FF is about TOTAL body flying, so your gonna have to learn belly flying sooner or later, along with sit, stand, back, and head down, why not use the RW more as a learning aid on the road to FF, and promote it as such, rather than a frustrating 'requirement'.
Cya
D

[diverdriver 5]

True statements. But putting a number on it would seem almost impossible. Then there is the spirit of adventure and wanting to fit in that pervades throught the skydiving community. Admit it.....at places that freefly a lot there are a lot of people going into freeflying. Where there are a lot of people doing CRW there are young jumpers going into CRW. Etc...etc...
So at what point should you be allowed to get into freeflying? In the US there is no mandatory 4 way skills required for any license. Should there be? No one like regulation. But peer pressure can be a powerful tool. Make your voice heard when you think someone shouldn't be freeflying before they are ready.
Chris

[Trent 0]

I agree totally. I was lucky enough to have people around where I learned that said to me, "I'll help you out with freeflying when you can be anywhere you want on your belly." It kinda sucked at first, but I know NOW that it was the best thing for me. It really scares me when I see 3 or for really low time jumpers "organizing" a freefly dive. Now maybe they are very competent and are freefall prodigies, but there is definitely an awareness of your surroundings (in the air/under canopy) that only develops with experience. I thought I was very aware when I had 100-200 jumps, but now I realize how much I was really unaware and unprepared for. Someone told me the other day, now that you've got a lot of jumps... you realize just how much you DON'T know.
Just from some of the posts I've read here on DZ.com, we've got people with 50-200 jumps who are already swoopers, freefly coaches, videographers, extreme canopy pilots, and S&TAs. I am none of these things. I am, however, a jumper who has realized that all that "bullshit" that the older/more experienced jumpers were telling you in the beginning, has real value and is worth listening to. Please be safe out there!

[freeflir29 0]

Solid belly skills are needed before you do much free flying. However, I have no problem at all with someone that has 40 jumps going out on a solo or with an experienced free flyer to try out sit flying every once in a while. I certainly encourage younger jumpers to do RW work in the 4 way or so variety. It's very important for them to be solid belly flyers before we go FREAKIN but I don't think it needs a jump number placed on it. In fact....I think putting a jump number on it would be rediculous. I also think all the regulations in the UK are the reason 13 colonies told the Queen to piss up a rope. "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[Geoff 0]

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13 colonies told the Queen to piss up a rope....

do you know something about George III that the rest of us don't ?

[skreamer 1]

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However, I have no problem at all with someone that has 40 jumps going out on a solo

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I certainly encourage younger jumpers to do RW work in the 4 way or so variety.

I am so glad that we have more experienced jumpers of your stature looking out for everyones safety... BTW there is no jump requirement for the FS1, if you have the skills you can get it very quickly. Some people have it by 50 jumps, others (like me) take a bit longer. I am really enjoying learning freeflying but definitely don't resent having learnt basic flat-flying first.
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

In my opinion, if your doing a solo dive, why not FF if you want? Belly flying can be a little dull by yourself, so I think it's ok to FF. In groups however, i think it's better to stick to belly flying.
There's no tomorrow - you ain't gonna live it for me - The Offspring

[skreamer 1]

You have GOT to be kidding me??? So a low-timer with 20 jumps doing a solo tries going head down. Doesn't realize he is burning through altitude a LOT faster and can't see his alti. This guy isn't wearing a freefly friendly rig and has no audible. He does or doesn't have a cypres (either way he could be phuqed).
You think it is OK for a low-timer to try freeflying on their own???? NO WAY!!
(and I haven't even mentioned scenarios like the solo newbies "head down" attempt actually being a very long steep track that takes him into a previous group as they deploy)
I think you should give it a bit of thought and revise your opinion.
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[MarkM 0]

Is the problem inexperienced people freeflying or inexperienced freefliers jumping with others?
What basic skills should you have for solo freeflying?
How do you learn the skills needed for freeflying with others?
Do a bunch of solo jumps, then transition to jumping with 1 other person who's experienced?

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

You're taking my opinion to the extreme edge there. I've got 81 jumps and a superfly, no FS1, but on my solo dives I FF. I also have a protack etc.
There's no tomorrow - you ain't gonna live it for me - The Offspring

[skreamer 1]

Well then perhaps you should have qualified the following statement a little better :

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In my opinion, if your doing a solo dive, why not FF if you want?

It didn't appear to me that you were only referring to yourself, but making that statement in general. And I would hate for anybody with 20 jumps who lurks this forum to read something like that and think 'hey that seems like fun, I'll try it on my next solo...'. If you were only referring to yourself with your gear then fine, but that wasn't the impression that I got.
My apologies if I misread it and I am definitely not flaming you, I just happen to think that getting your FS1 before you start freeflying is a rule that makes a whole lot of sense.
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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In the US there is no mandatory 4 way skills required for any license.

I guess you missed the requirement for a 4-point 4-way (C-license) and a 2-point 8-way (D-license) in the SIM. They have been requirements for at least the 21.5 years I have been skydiving.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[jceman 1]

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I guess you missed the requirement for a 4-point 4-way (C-license) and a 2-point 8-way (D-license) in the SIM. They have been requirements for at least the 21.5 years I have been skydiving.

Almost right Chuck. Those are among the requirements, but they are NOT mandatory (which was the other poster's point). You can do a partial style set for the C and a full style set for the D in lieu of the RW.

[R00tj00se 0]

As much as I hate to admit this I have to agree with the ugly South African on this. I think it's definately a good idea to get as much belly flying experience as possible before trying the FF stuff. Getting out of the way of a newly qualified FS1 guy who has just overcooked their approach to dock can give you an appreciation of the skill and anticipation required for collision avoidance - now think of FF speeds and you'll realise how quick you have to be.
As for a minimum jump limit... Well, in the UK you have to have FS1 so on average you're going to have between 50 and 100 jumps when you get FS1 which is a reasonable number.
But then what you have to remember is that in the UK you are supposed to have CCi approval before you attempt any sit-flying - even solo's. I would also like to see it brought in that even before you attempt a solo FF jump you have obtained a full safety brief from the DZ FF coach on what to expect and on how to recover and go back into a sit when things go tits up.
I know this doesn't apply to everyone (I did some jumps with a guy who had less than 100 jumps this weekend and he was pretty damn good in a sit) however having rules can help save lives.
As for me - I did 300 flat jumps and have now done about 70 sit jumps. For me, I like doing 2 ways because they can really make you work. - just think before you hop on a big way with kewl and the gang.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

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My apologies if I misread it and I am definitely not flaming you, I just happen to think that getting your FS1 before you start freeflying is a rule that makes a whole lot of sense.

Sure, no worries. It is a good idea, but I don't think it's essential as long as the person trying FF has his / her head screwed on and knows what's going on.
There's no tomorrow - you ain't gonna live it for me - The Offspring

[MarkM 0]

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You have GOT to be kidding me??? So a low-timer with 20 jumps doing a solo tries going head down. Doesn't realize he is burning through altitude a LOT faster and can't see his alti. This guy isn't wearing a freefly friendly rig and has no audible. He does or doesn't have a cypres (either way he could be phuqed).

I don't think those specific items have much to do with 20 jumps.
You can not realize you're burning altitude faster head down if you've done 100 RW's. Your rig might not be FF friendly if you've been doing RW. You may or may not have a Cypres if you've been doing RW.
Conversly, since you don't have any learned altitude sense you may visually check more as a newbie, maybe that new first rig you bought is FF friendly and since you're a noob you jump with a Cypres.

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And I would hate for anybody with 20 jumps who lurks this forum to read something like that and think 'hey that seems like fun, I'll try it on my next solo...'.

Yeah, but they need to know why it isn't a good idea. What specific skills won't they have to FF solo safely. What are the ways they can train to get them, so they're not a hazard in the air when they eventually start playing around with freeflying.

[Geoff 0]

Actually, you don't need FS1 to start freeflying in the UK. The ops manual says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.5.1. To obtain Grade 1 in Freestyle/Freeflying (FF1) the parachutist must first demonstrate (in a belly to earth position, as in 6.2.1. above) the ability to:
a) Control fall rate.
b) Control horizontal movement, (forwards, backwards and sideways).
c) Achieve ‘docking’ techniques.
d) Turn in place.
e) Dive and approach a target.
The parachutist may then be introduced to FF (for FF1 training) by a CCI nominated FF2 Grade parachutist or equivalent of proven FF instructional ability, have received a full safety brief .........blah blah blah
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In other words, you need the BTE control skills for FS1, but you don't need to do the 4 way. Maybe some DZs have more stringent rules.
To me the most important part here is the requirement to receive a full safety brief. I would say that should cover as a minimum-
gear
altitude awareness
break-off height
importance of slowing down before deployment
exit order and separation
risk of sliding horizontally
additional risks due to high-speed (collisions, premature deployment).
Geoff

[diverdriver 5]

Yep, those would be the ones I missed. My bad.
LOL.

[billvon 2,990]

>You think it is OK for a low-timer to try freeflying on their own???? NO WAY!!
I think it has way more to do with training than number of jumps. Someone with 20 jumps who tries a backloop and ends up sitflying for 5 seconds? No problem at all (if the gear can handle it of course) - in fact, he got some preparation for that during AFF level VI (in a standard program.) If he gets some instruction and tries it for 30 seconds, again assuming his equipment can handle it - not a problem.
If he tries to go head down with poorly protected student gear, no training, no audible, and he tracks right into another group, it's a big problem. It is no different for RW - a jumper at 20 jumps may have no problem doing a 2-way with a coach, but that does not mean he's ready to do a 20-way. As in any other aspect of skydiving, training and experience determine what you can and can't do.
-bill von

[3fLiEr 0]

So tell me Will .............. how many jumps did you have when you first started Freeflying?????
bsbd
GoLoNsMiLe
"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"

[E150 0]

Totaly agree.

[skreamer 1]

98, took me a while to get my FS1. How about yourself?
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[freeflir29 0]

Heheheheee.....I think I tried my first attempt at Head down around 30 jumps.... I'm much better now that I have over 150 Free Fly jumps...
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[Ducky 0]

Just to take this on a different tangent....
As for numbers, and levels of experience needed to take on a new challenge, who the F*ck are we to decide??
Someone commented about perhaps bad advice or poorly judged statements being made and then seen by a lurking newbie and taken to heart. First off the probelm does not lie in the opinion or misinformation being posted here. The problem would be in any low-time jumper taking ANYTHING he reads here as the standard or good advice. I admit and am glad there are tons of very knowledgeable people here who give great advice. In contrast there are many who are nothing more than a "desk jockey" wanna be instructor talkin out there ass. I would certainly hope any newbie would seek the advice of someone (preferably an Instr.) that actually knows him and his abilitys with these questions.
There is no reason to stop posting opinions on such matters or stop debating them. I do however think that the obvious gets overlooked here. Many people with 150 jumps are less skilled than peeps with 40 jumps. Many factors may contribute, currency being a huge one. What about those peeps out there with 80 jumps, 20 were hnps, none were ever coached and the balance were with equally or less experienced jumpers? I'd say that person has nothing more than a lil more canopy experience over myself with 30 jumps. Again what is experience?? I see it on the side of plumbers' vans all day long "20 yrs in the business" blah blah. SKILL is what were after here, not how long you've been able to survive w/o biting it.
ok ok not flaming anyone, but that is MY OPINION
kwak
Stupidity is a crime.