Question for AFFI's

[Hooknswoop 19]

Richard's, "An article worth reading" post motivated this question.
How low would you chase a student before giving up and pulling yourself?
Hook

[Sebazz1 2]

The student is ultimately responsible for themselves. That being said I would probably stop chasing around 2,000K which will probably end up being 1,500K when I actually dump. "If you see me deploy my pilot chute what are you going to do?"...........
Another thing/side note. I have two rigs one with and one without a cypress. I consider myself a ok to good skydiver but when I see people with more experience than myself lose altitude awareness I don't take it lightly. I preach altitude awareness all the time. So It can happen to all of us. I will be ordering a second cypress shortly......
Sebazz........

[riggerrob 643]

If students are still in freefall below 3,000' they are on their own.
Rob Warner, PFF Instructor

[GrumpySmurf 0]

I ain't no AFF-I, but I think the AFF-I manual make it clear that an instructor is to get clear and deploy no lower than 2K (they use the word 'must')- I think section 3.3.G.f.
Dunno 'bout anyone else - but I don't think I would want to turn a situation of 1 potential fatality into a situation of 2 potential fatalities - at some point ya gotta say, "Abandon ship, everyman for himself" *shrug*

[rhino 0]

If I had a cypress I would chase a student until the cypress fires. If no cypress 1000 feet ish.. and I would go straight for my reserve,
Call me crazy but I'm responsible for that person. If I had a students life in my hands I would damn near die trying to save him or her.
Blue Skies .....

[rhino 0]

Where is the article? What circumstance was the student being chased?
Blue Skies .....

[weid14 0]

you're not responsible for that person, they are responsible for themselves. That should be taught in FJC.

[rgoper 0]

took this off of another forum. i think this jm feels horibly for the one that lost his life, but is stating procedures in hopes that no one else will be lost.
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I don't know what happened in Connecticut, but there have been a few posts that focus on the bravery of an AFF instructor who stays with a student and places
his own life in jeopardy to help the student pull.
AFF instructors are trained to never stay with a student below normal breakoff altitude. If the ripcord hasn't been pulled and it is time to go, the instructor must stop his efforts and save his own life. It is not heroic to die trying to save a student who is struggling with a pull or is unstable. Breakoff is breakoff, and pull time is pull time. Always.
Every AFF student should be trained to understand the hand signal for pull, and they should also be trained to understand that they must pull immediately if they see their instructor deploy. That gives the instructor two ways to signal
the student to pull. On release dives a standard wave off is often added as a third signal to pull.
Every student must understand that they are solely responsible for saving their own life on every skydive, and that the instructor will NOT make a wild heroic effort to help them. If a student sees his instructor hanging out, chasing him,
or trying to grab onto the ripcord he may think everything is OK and keep working the freefall problem well below normal pull altitudes. By opening his own parachute the instructor clearly shows the student that freefall must be over. Leaving a struggling student isn't easy, but every instructor needs to be
ready to breakoff when the freefall part of the skydive is over.
It is really easy for an AFF instructor to become so focused on the ripcord pull that he looses track of altitude. Every AFF instructor should have a visible altimeter (required by BSRs), and an audible warning device like a Pro-Track or Ditter. It is also a really, really, really good idea for AFF instructors to have an AAD as a final back-up. And of course, every student
should always have an AAD.
If you have a chance this weekend, talk with the AFF instructors on your DZ and see what their plans are for a ripcord problem at breakoff altitude. Do they have a hard deck for their own pull, and do they brief their students to pull
if the instructor has pulled? This is also a great topic of conversation for static line instructors and coaches who fly with students on higher level jumps. It is also worth discussing the advantages of audibles and AAD for
instructors. Does your school have a policy about this? Should it? Does your school help instructors with the cost of AADs or audibles? Should they?
Again, I don't know what happened in Connecticut, and this post isn't really
about that event anyway. We should all take a quick moment to think about our responsibilities as instructors, and the training we provide our students for pull difficulties. We should also think about how easy it is for both students
and instructors to loose track of altitude, and reconsider our minimum equipment needs when flying with beginners who may need our help.
Tom Buchanan
D-8514
Instructor (AFF, SL, Tandem)
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the attached jpeg is illustrating a ripcord pull by main side jm, and student. the timing of the photograph is such that at pull time, the reserve side jm sees no pc, so he goes up to investigate, and i'm sure the dive turned out ok for everyone involved. (no reports that it didn't) hook has asked a question that every AFF1 should already know the answer to, sad but true, if your student isn't deployed by 3000-2500, you must track away and save yourself. all student rigs should be equipped with AAD devices. if you not willing to let them go after your "hard deck" then don't be a dive master. this divemaster (in my opinion) lost altitude awareness, and his life. "it's all about living"
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[PhreeZone 20]

As I said at least 15 times in the FJC I taught not long ago... you are ultimatly responcible for pulling. The JM's may not pull for you, and if they don't its your life. Its the students responcibility to pull, pull on altitude, and then pull on altitude with stability. Under 2000 is a no chase zone for I's... and under 5000 coaches are out of the jump... Also a coach is not allowed to delpoy a student, only the student can deploy the student unless there is an emergency...
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[billvon 2,991]

>How low would you chase a student before giving up and pulling yourself?
Depends on the person. To 1500 feet if I didn't know them well, then I'd pull and pray to Helmut. I don't think I could abandon someone I knew well no matter what the altitude.
-bill von

[Cornholio 0]

Quote

Call me crazy but I'm responsible for that person

One of the questions on my FJC "test" was that very question: Who is responsible for pulling my chute" Answer: ME I know of a couple instructors at my DZ that have chased down students and risked their lives in doing so.
I am not an AFFI, but I wil always remember that I, and I alone, am responsible for pulling my chute - not my instructor, coach, Cypres, or RSL.... just ME.
__________________________________________
If first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you.

[GroundZero 0]

... real simple... it's a rule...
AFF JM's (oh great, we're now all I's!) DO NOT go below 2000'... PERIOD.
We've been unfortunate over the years to hear about JM's chasing students to fatality altitudes. At 2000' the JM pulls him(her)self. This is taught to all AFF students... it is a "pull" signal to the student.
No heros please.
Chris
(I've "dropped" 3 students through the 2000' hard deck, guess what... they all pulled and lived.)

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I'm not a AFF-I (not by a long shot), but below 2500 you're on your own. You should be big and ugly enough to take care of yourself. Just my opinion, no flames etc intended
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[Remster 30]

Quote

If I had a cypress I would chase a student until the cypress fires. If no cypress 1000 feet ish..

Thats kinda scary rhino.... relying on the cypres to save your ass... plus at 1000, would you go to reserve? I hope so....
I dont have all the details of the incident in CT, but was the student rig AAD equiped?
Remster
Muff 914

[rhino 0]

Remmster,,,
I'd go for the reserve at a grand no doubt.. The cypress could possibly beat me..
Scottie pulled at a grand all the time with his main but he is a old salty fearless dawg.. I'd have to have a 1001 foot snivel.. So I would hit the reserve..
Blue Skies .....

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"he is a old salty fearless dawg"
And Satan looks after his own
Cya
D

[riggerrob 643]

2 points:
A long time ago, USPA. CSPA etc. insisted that all students wear some kind of AAD.
Secondly, heros collect medals posthumonously(sp?), while smart people collect pensions.

[rgoper 0]

**Scottie pulled at a grand all the time with his main but he is a old salty fearless dawg.. I'd have to have a 1001 foot snivel.. So I would hit the reserve..**
this is hardly a good example of safe sky diving. not slamming anyone here, or scotty for pulling at 1000, it's his life. but the fact of the matter is, at 1000 you pull, (your main) your not S.S.S. your dead, or really wishing you were, that simple. (i pulled two weeks ago at 1800 agl because of industrial haze, i wanted to be below it) i wasn't liking it very much either. i think we can safely make the statement that our AFP, AFF, programs are sufficient with the details to where this won't be a constantly recurring problem. it reminds me of when we do H2S training on just about every drilling project i've been on in the last 27 years, if H2S is present, and your best friend is lying near the rig, leave him there, cause you will most certainly lose your life as well, trying to help save his, life's a bitch, then ya die, cold hard facts. (i have been in this very situation, more than once, i can tell you, it's hard watching someone under your command be severely impaired, or even worse die) my very first AFP dive, i knew exactly what i was going to do at 4500, (because of the training i recieved) and i did it, we can only train ourselfs, to train others, up and coming in the sport to do the same for themselfs. i'm signed up for my USPA coach's course, and the AFF program, and i can gaurentee you i will do the same for the students that my divemasters did for me, drill, drill, drill, until you get it right on the ground, you don't get on the plane. being a hero, trying to chase a student down past 2K, when they're AAD equipped is an excersize in futility, again, cold hard (proven) facts. the sport of sky diving is extremely dangerous, and always will be, BUT, it can, and is performed safely on a daily basis, with the proper training, and planning. for those of you thinking of getting your coaching and AFF, AFP ratings, think twice before you go below "deployment altitude" with your student, please...............
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"it reminds me of when we do H2S training on just about every drilling project i've been on in the last 27 years, if H2S is present, and your best friend is lying near the rig, leave him there, cause you will most certainly lose your life as well,"
I hear that brother, design case 17% H2S on Kashagan, you smell it (if your lucky), then you die.....On Sunkar, the swamp barge Parker put down there a couple of years back, there wasn't enough escape sets for the full crew compliment when they spudded ...... shivvers......
"down past 2K, when they're AAD equipped is an excersize in futility"
I'm with you, but it must take discipline to make that decision, its a difficult call to make in the heat of the moment.
Cya
D

[scottbre 0]

Quote

S.S.S.

and

Quote

H2S

Holy crap! What the hell are you talking about!? Turn off the world before you come to bed.

[rgoper 0]

S.S.S. Square, Steerable, And Stable. H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide) is a dense highly dangerous gas that attacks the central nervous system, first the sense of smell, (they say you only get to smell it once) then the elements that allow you to breath, therefore paralayzing your ability to breath. i was simply drawing a parralell from my profession to the sport. and as for the S.S.S. did you not pay attention in FJC?
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[scottbre 0]

Quote

and as for the S.S.S. did you not pay attention in FJC?

Yea, I paid attention, but I hadn't heard any referrence to the 3 S's since my classroom training for my first static line jump, 75 jumps ago. The context that I read it in your post was that of some part of your gear called "S.S.S." mmmmmm... Nerve gas....
Turn off the world before you come to bed.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Yup what Richard said, H2S, or hydrogen sulphide.
Its a gas that smells like rotten eggs, then you can't smell it cause its killed your sense of smell (olfactory system), then it kills ya.
Its just one of many nasty things (there's hot stuff, high pressure stuff, radioactive stuff, poisonous smelly stuff, suffocating stuff, corrosive stuff, erosive stuff, and of course highly flammable and explosive stuff) that comes out of the ground (or from beneath the quite often deep water or thick ice) with the oil that we need so badly to drive our kids to soccer games, visit the mall etc, in our 6 litre SUVs.
Its an accepted risk we face when getting fuel for you guys, along with hard things that go up and down, and round and round really quickly, really nasty weather, choppers ditching in the sea, getting guns pointed at us, kidnappings, and being subjected to food poisoning in countries a lot of people don't even know exist.
Enjoy your cruising, just don't complain about the price of gas.....
Cya
D

[rgoper 0]

finally, at long last a "brother" in the petroleum industry! Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[rgoper 0]

**Yea, I paid attention, but I hadn't heard any referrence to the 3 S's since my classroom training for my first static line jump, 75 jumps ago.**
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75 jumps ago? c'mon man, what about your next 75, and the next 75?
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"the "big 3": 3 handles, 3 buckles, 3 rings, a "must before boarding, exiting the aircraft." do NOT become complacent, complancey kills. at deployment the S.S.S. check, you should NEVER have forgotten it, rehearse the big 3, (before boarding the aircraft, until you're sick of it, always do a pin check, (and browse othe jumper's gear as well) and a big 3, and just before jumping, check your handles, not a "quick look" either, take time and visually inspect them, as if your life depended on it, (because it does) always protect you handles as well, i keep my hand on my hackey constantly, before going up, i "get into the zone" and the triple s's under canopy, and make sure you have a hard deck....always.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"