Question for AFFI's

[PhreeZone 20]

Sss? Nope its WARP then RCFS for me.
Acroynms are pointless in this sport where instructor to instructor has thier own teaching methods and terms.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[AndyMan 7]

I was never taught any of these acronyms. I just started seeing the "3 checks" - rings, handles, straps - when I moved to chicago.
I had no idea what the SSS was until you mentioned it.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Jessica 0]

Quote

I had no idea what the SSS was until you mentioned it.

I was taught SSS, but looks like the ISP is calling it "There, square and steerable" nowadays. Alliteration AND rhyme!

[Zennie 0]

Quote

had no idea what the SSS was until you mentioned it.

Now I just go by CILTMF.
Can I Land This Mofo?
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[riggerrob 643]

On some DZs "SSS" means checking "shape, speed, spin?"

[rgoper 0]

Hey Hook:
what's your procedures? just curious. i think if they got out of control on me early, way early, i'd deploy them early, (give them the pull signal first) let em' ride it down.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Hey Hook:
what's your procedures? just curious. i think if they got out of control on me early, way early, i'd deploy them early, (give them the pull signal first) let em' ride it down."
My plan is to never have to answer my own question. I will take a leg gripper on the student before pull time (on release dives), just to make sure they aren't getting away from me. It doesn't take anything away from the student and prevent having to chase them if it gets ugly at pull time. Before that I fly very tight. I look for trouble before it happens. The look ontheor face say a lot. That is why I don't let student wear tinted goggles. Having worn a sidewinder w/ a PC-1 on 800+ AFF jumps, I have been able to self-critique my own performance on these dives and I recognize trouble coming a lot sooner than when I was a new AFFI.
What would I do? I hope I never have to find out.
Hook

[rgoper 0]

Hook:
i hope you never have to find out either. but on the other hand i know you have back up plans, for back up plans. so come on buddy, out with it, what's your plan? me, 2500-2000 they're on thery're own, but hopefully, it will never come to that.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[jumpervali 2]

2,000 ft.
jumpervali AFF-I-02

[scottbre 0]

Quote

I had no idea what the SSS was until you mentioned it.

and

Quote

Sss? Nope its WARP then RCFS for me.

My point exactly. Just because I don't think about it in terms of "SSS" or whatever doesn't mean that I am being complacent in my controlability and landability checks.
Geesh....
Turn off the world before you come to bed.

[Hooknswoop 19]

OK,
If things are going that bad, then they probably can't see me because they are spinning so bad. So if I pull chances are they won't see me.
I have no intentions of landing after watching my student bounce, walk up to their mother/father, look them in the eye and tell them, "Sorry your son/daughter is dead, I couldn't catch them. I gave up."
As much as I tell them, pulling is their responsibility, they are responsible for themselves, etc, I still believe I am responsible for my student.
Another way to think about it, you and your best friend have a mid-air collision in free-fall and they are knocked un-concious. At what point to give up and let your buddy die? How many PJ's gave their lives in Vietnam attempting to rescure a pilot they never met?
I take AFF very seriously and if I felt I couldn't catch a student, I would turn in my rating.
Hook

[SkyMissy 0]

This issue is very serious, and it's killing me. I'm sorry to have to inject the tiniest bit of sick humor, but:

Quote

How low would you chase a student before giving up and pulling yourself?

I generally "pull myself" after I get home, and NEVER while in the air with students!! Of course, I am no AFF I either!
13,500' to the ground. We're dressed like clowns. The door's open. Hit it!

[rgoper 0]

it is my belief, and contention that this most unfortunate incident will heighten all aspects of the training phase so no jump master ever has to be in this situation to begin with. training is the beginning of successful sky dive(s) i know there are many different ideas, and perspectives on this subject, and all of them heartfelt, all we can do is train ourselves to be better trainers.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[sabregrl 0]

Thanks Bill - That's why I like jumping with you!

[rhino 0]

Is going after a spinning or out of control student part of the AFF certification?
Blue Skies .....

[Hooknswoop 19]

The evaluators do thier best to simulate a poor student (not as easy as it sounds) while at the same time watch and evaluate 2 candidates, and keep track of altitude. That is a very busy skydive and they must be very good instructors and skydiver to do the job they do.
They do not get nearly out of control as real students are capable of. From what I saw, they will do something to move away from the candidates, then not move, and watch the candidates and see how fast they recover. I didn't have an evaluator get on their back, spin, or make any radical moves.
Hook

[GroundZero 0]

That does it!
I'm tired of watching this thread. "I'm goin' to be the hero, I'll die if need be..."
Bullshit!
The RULE is... 2000' hard-deck. (Not 1500', not "depends who it is... not anything but 2000'.)
Now let me tell you why we came up with this.
1) Minimum opening altitude for experienced jumpers is 2000' agl. This allows for activation, malfunction, decision, response and correction, (cutaway, reserve activation, etc.).
Below that you claim to be beating the odds. (Here you're gambling YOUR life ALONE.) Minimum deployment altitude for AFF JM's, (sorry, I guess I meant "I"s) is 2000' AGL.
2) Primarily, you are responsible for your life. Secondarily, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR STUDENT. So you are the "catch 'em in a swoop and deploy 'em at a few hundred feet" kinda hero.... At this point you are simply giving the student a sense of "I'm there for you!" kinda sense of security. They'll "wait" for you. AFF protocol requires that the student is trained to deploy if the instructor deploys.
In the Student's mind, the inverse is true... If the instructor is there... "It's OK...".
Play by the rules, teach your student the rules, do not break the rules. It will cost a Life.
DON'T Gamble on your student's life.
Chris

[GroundZero 0]

Let me repost from my previous post on this thread...
_______________________________________________
"(I've "dropped" 3 students through the 2000' hard deck, guess what... they all pulled and lived.)"
_______________________________________________
Play by the rules.
Chris

[Hooknswoop 19]

"I'm tired of watching this thread. "I'm goin' to be the hero, I'll die if need be...""
I heard a story about two guys that accidently set fire to an apartment building. They ended up rescueing a bunch of people out of the building and were treated like heros. I think that once they set fire to the apartment building, they are DQ'd from being heros, regardless of how many people they save. Kinda like you aren't a hero if you save someones life that was shot, if you shot them, you aren't a hero. If you catch your student at 1000 ft and live to tell the tell you aren't a hero, you should have never been in that situation to begin with.
Another example, if you student had a PC in tow (from the bridle being mis-routed) on a throw out system and they panic and you pull their their reserve for them, you are DQ'd from being the hero becasue you should have caught the packing error on the ground.
Hook

[billvon 2,990]

>The RULE is... 2000' hard-deck. (Not 1500', not "depends who it is... not
> anything but 2000'.)
I agree that that's the rule, and I agree that it's a good rule. Since you seem to be referring to my post in the above quote I'll answer why I may not do that.
First off, at the bottom end, I'm going to give the student every possible chance. That means at 2000 feet I'm going to make a final grab for his handles and then deploy. That means, worst case, I'm going to be opening at 1500 feet, which is the absolute minimum for my canopy/AAD combination. I have opened this low perhaps half a dozen times in my career (always to avoid a jumper above me) even though the minimum deployment altitude at the DZ was 2000 feet. The danger in opening at that altitude (risk of collision) seemed to justify pushing that particular limit.
Secondly, I was once doing AFF with a friend of mine (same load, different students.) At student pull time, the cameraman got above her and fell on her, knocking her out. She fell for 4000 feet before regaining consciousness. She could not deploy her main, or her reserve with her left hand. She finally got both hands on the reserve handle and got the reserve out. Her cypres fired but did not cut the loop. She landed safely and was back jumping in 6 months after rehab.
I watched the tape from the cameraman's camera later with her. The cameraman tried to catch her but could not. And watching that tape, I know in my heart I could not have given up on her, no matter how dangerous I knew that was.
Is that stupid? Of course. It is a failure of mine, and it's one of the reasons I use an AAD. I am not perfect in many ways, and this is just one of them.
-bill von

[billvon 2,990]

>I think that once they set fire to the apartment building, they are DQ'd from
>being heros, regardless of how many people they save.
Just about every "hero" I've talked to did not consider themselves any such thing. Heroes, I think, are largely a media creation. Al Haynes, the man who landed an unlandable DC-10 in Sioux City with _no_ working control surfaces, has been repeatedly called a hero. Several times, when someone has told him he saved the lives of 184 people, he has reminded them that he didn't save the other 112, and credits the emergency preparedness of the airport for the lives of the survivors.
-bill von

[Zennie 0]

I kind of lean in the "it's my student & my responsibility" direction personally (granted I'm not an instructor, but that would be my take if I were).
Just an observation here, but all students should be wearing an AAD. Knowing a student had an AAD I'd prolly chase 'em down to around 1500-ish, pull my reserve & hope their AAD fires.
Now if I had someone who I knew didn't have an AAD (or if I wasn't sure) I'd prolly chase 'em till my own Cypres fired. And then you'd prolly need to heavily sedate me when I got down...
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[bhale 0]

2,000 feet, end of story. Student cypress!!!

[caseyusa 0]

Hook- your answers exude wisdom and intelligence! I'd have you as my AFFI anyday!!