Reserve pad pulls

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I was chatting with the resident instructor at my DZ today after he looked at my kit and he said the best was to grab a reserve pad is to get the metal cable between your thumb and finger (like a handle) and grab the pad normally. It works if you've grabbed it normally and lost your grip and the pad it floating - just grab the cable instead of wasting altitude trying to grab the pad.
just thought I'd say, cos I've never thought of doing that until today, and I know more and more people jump with pads now.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[RichM 0]

I jump a Racer NOS. I asked Jumpshack if they would sell me a reserve pad and they said no. I asked them why (albeit in a slight provocative way) and am waiting for a reply. I don't think I will get one now. So without John's permission (sorry John, but in the interests of furthering my understanding) I reproduce the short email chain below. Please feel free to add.
NB: since this email chain I have thought further and realize that there is a difference in operation between the two handles in a standard rig. The cutaway pad is constant pressure during the loaded part of the pull, whereas the reserve handle has spare cable and when the slack gets taken up and the cable starts being pulled there is already momentum in the action and an impact happens (Impacts are good for breaking high initial friction). However I believe there is a design factor which says you should never get more than 22lbs of pull on the cutaway (and certainly Jumpshack iterated this several times to me in conversation), and certainly in the UK reserve handle pull force must be measured by the reserve packer and must not exceed 22lbs. So the forces are the same(ish), but the deployments are different.
Email chain:
Do Jumpshack do a reserve pillow to replace the reserve handle on a Racer Elite, d.o.m. Jan 2001? I checked your parts catalog, but can’t find reserve handles there at all.
No, We don't make a Reserve Pillow type replacement handle for the Racer Elite. What the sport doesn't need is a reserve ripcord which is harder to grab and pull. We do however make a red metal cutaway handle and lanyard which is easier to grasp and pull than the pillow.
Reserve Ripcords are located in our on-line catalog at: http://www.jumpshack.com/webcatalog/default.asp?ProductID=161&SectionID=PART&CategoryID=21
Thanks for your swift response, although of course I wanted a pillow. Increasing numbers of freefliers are jumping reserve pillows. I understand this is to reduce the danger of accidental reserve deployment due to collisions, in freefly it is much more likely that the colliding surface will be a chest. I recognize that this makes the job of deploying the reserve slightly more difficult than if a handle was present. So we have a balance of two safety issues. As a 100% freeflyer I feel that for me personally there is greater risk of premature accidental reserve deployment than from failing to pull a reserve pillow. I tend to this opinion based on my jump numbers (450, last 350 freefly) and that I have heard of several instances of accidental premature reserve deployment by limbs/objects catching in the reserve handle, whereas I have not heard of any instances of failure to grip and activate a cut away pillow. I jump a Cypres too, I know we do not rely on electro-mechanical units to save our lives, but it does reduce the risk of no canopy at all.
I welcome your very informed opinion, but I reserve the right to not make it my own :)
Email chain end.
Rich M

[RichM 0]

Erm, apologies for hijacking the initial thread. Thanks for the good tip SkydiveMonkey.
RichM
*I blame the beer - I've not had enough yet!"

[skymedic 0]

one more reason I dont jump a racer.....can't wait for my wings to get here....
Cheers....vasbyt
marc
"I have no fear of falling, I just hate hitting the ground"-The Badlees...

[polarbear 1]

In the US, the reserve ripcord on a standard sport rig is required to take less then 22 lbs to pull. This is required in the TSO. If it takes more than 22 lbs, the rig does not fulfill the TSO requirements. It is the rigger's responsibility to insure that in the field the pull force does not exceed 22 lbs. I have no idea how easy/hard it is to pull a soft ripcord handle at 22 lbs...but I would suggest you try it and make sure you're up to it before getting one.
It does strike me as odd that hard cutaways are known to occur in the sport, yet most jumpers use the standard pilow cutaway. The TSO requires less than 22 lbs on the reserve...but under a spinning mal with line twists, the cutaway force could easily be more than 22lbs. It does seem like if you're going to trust you can pull the cutaway in this instance, you should also be able to pull the reserve...
As far as soft ripcord handles, personally I agree that I don't want to make reserve deployment any more difficult. I want my thumb through a ring. But, I only do maybe 50% freefly, and never let people dock/grab on to my harness in the vicinity of my emergency handles, specifically because I don't want them pulled by accident. I would agree that a premature deployment of a reserve, particularly while at higher speeds in freeflying, is bad.
Soft handles are just one more variable in the gear equation. As with all gear, the jumper needs to be familiar with the approproate issues before choosing.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Bear-
That is the biggest point that people that are against pillows for reserve handles give me blanks looks over when I bring it up. It is commonly accepted to have a pillow for a cutaway handle. The cutaway handle can be far harder to pull than the reserve handle. So the "I want to get a solid grip on my reserve handle" theory doesn't hold water. "I want two different handles so I don't pull them in the wrong order". I hope a skydiver can know their left from their right. Also, again the cutaway handle has to potential to be harder to pull than the reserve handle. The "If I am injured I want to be able to hook the reserve handle w/ my thumb". Ok, but how are you going to hook your thumb in your cutaway handle?
If a pillow is good enough for the cutaway handle (which is probably going to harder to pull than the reserve handle), why is it a bad idea for the reserve handle? I haven't heard a sensible argument against pillow reserve handles yet.
Hook

[quade 4]

How's about this one . . .
Very few hard handles ever get tucked under themselves so that you can't find them.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

So then why don't people constantly go in w/ main-reserve entanglements after firing their reserves into their mains because their cutaway handle was folded under? Again, if the pillow is such a bad idea, why use them as a handle for the cutaway system?
Hook

[PhreeZone 20]

I personally like the idea of soft loop handles for both the custaway and the reserve....

[phastasphuk 0]

I think that in the case im injured (arms), i would be able to pull my reserve handle with either my left and right arm if i have a handle. A soft reserve handle would be much harder to pull with your right arm.
So if right arm is out of action, I probably wont be able to pull my main, and then i dont need the cutaway pillow anyway.
If left arm is out, i can access all 3 handles easily in whatever order I want depending on equipment.
Both arms out....well...its either use your teeth or AAD then...
chris
How would you like to stick with me
how much do you love to freefall

[RichM 0]

A quick note on folding under, I notice that one company out there is stiffening the reserve pilliw with a plastic sheet insert to help prevent exactly this. I recall who atm.
Rich M

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

It's on the new Mirage I think.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[airann 1]

I recall my malfunction and at the time only my training came to mind. There was a line over and alot of line twists so I couldnt get a toggle down, only one...
I was taught to pull with both hands - Cutaway and Pull your Reserve. Both hands.
Pillow or Handle either way, I didnt care. I almost didnt get my other hand back up to pull the cutaway handle because of the spinning forces tuggin on my ass. I thought my fillings were going to be pulled from my teeth.
Nobody said I was suposed to keep the handles, either.
I do not recall if it was difficult or not to pull either one.....
I do know they did get pulled and the only injury I had was a chipped fingernail.........
Ann ~ www.AirAnn.com
Anyone want a Kitten?

[Hooknswoop 19]

"I think that in the case im injured (arms), i would be able to pull my reserve handle with either my left and right arm if i have a handle. A soft reserve handle would be much harder to pull with your right arm.
So if right arm is out of action, I probably wont be able to pull my main, and then i dont need the cutaway pillow anyway.
If left arm is out, i can access all 3 handles easily in whatever order I want depending on equipment.
Both arms out....well...its either use your teeth or AAD then..."
Each of has to decide, what is more likely?, a pre-mature reserve deployment from snagging a reserve handle or injuring your left arm/hand in free fall and being unable to pull a reserve pillow handle with your right hand. As with most things in skydiving, it is a trade-off and no perfect answer. How many reserve handles have I seen/heard snagged versus how many people I've seen/heard going in because they injured their left arm/hand and couldn't pull a reserve pillow.
For me it is clear winner (several snags:zero fatalitys from left hand/arm injuries unable to pull reserve pillow), and I can pull my reserve pillow with my right hand.
If pillows are so bad why are they on 99% of the rigs out there?
Hook

[skydiverek 63]

> I personally like the idea of soft loop handles for both the > custaway and the reserve....
What would be an advantage of soft loop over metal handle?
I always thought soft loop may bend under main web lift or get distorted by relative wind.
I used to jump a pillow type cutaway handle, that had a thumb pocket (not a hole, just pocket) on its whole length. Such handle seemed to me like o good idea (both for cutaway and reserve) because, lets say, if you were to pull reserve with your left hand you could put you thumb in the pocket, and if you were doing it with a right hand, you could put your 4 fingers there. Bottom line: much easier to grab and gives you more positive pull.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Could any rigger do this?
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Please note, I am no instructor - so take my comments with a good ol' shaker of salt. I have a Jav. Ody. set up with soft pads for both the cutaway and reserve (yellow and red respectively, the rig is blue and silver - so the pads match absolutely nothing I would wear). I had to chop a misbehaving main just over a week ago. Each month that I do my maintenance, I practice the actual cutaway with a quick peel and pull, to build muscle memory - push the heel of the palm to peel and yank down and forward. During the cutaway, the reserve was out right after I chopped - I had no trouble yanking the reserve handle pad.
My mindset about the reserve pad (and this is personal choice) is that what my right arm will do, my left arm will do - yet there appears to be valid arguments both for and against the soft pads. Just remember to 'peel and pull' and not just 'pull' if you have the pad. When in doubt, talk to your instructor(s) and don't be too quick to discount what the manufacturers say, they have alot of experience building rigs and learning from the mistakes of others.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

My reserve frills have always been to peel before punching the pad / handle down and away. So that's what should happen when I get a mal (not a case of "if" !!)
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[riggerrob 643]

Any field rigger can install a soft reserve ripcord handle at you next repack.
However, only riggers who have a well-documented TSO quality control process (ie. factories) are allowed to build reserve ripcords.
Solution, order a new soft handle from the factory that built your rig and ask your local rigger to install it at the next repack.
Why you would want a soft ripcord handle is a concept that I have not grasped in 25 years of skydiving.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I already have a pad for the reserve. I was referring to the "pocket" on it.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Why you would want a soft ripcord handle is a concept that I have not grasped in 25 years of skydiving."
Snag resistance and stays attached to the harness better that a metal D-ring.
Hook

[billvon 2,991]

>The cutaway handle can be far harder to pull than the reserve handle. So the "I
> want to get a solid grip on my reserve handle" theory doesn't hold water.
Well, no. If a cutaway handle is hard to pull, the solution is to make it easier to pull - not to make the reserve handle just as hard to pull. That's going backwards, not forwards.
One good solution is the one used on Strong tandem rigs. There's a pocket behind the cutaway handle to allow you to get your fingers inside the handle before pulling it. It greatly increases your ability to grip it.
>"I want two different handles so I don't pull them in the wrong order". I hope a
> skydiver can know their left from their right.
Well, you can hope, but experience has shown that even pilots of twin-engine planes have problems with left and right - and they get more training than skydivers do. One such error (among other things) killed several skydivers at Perris ten years ago.
I think it's important to have a tactile difference between the handles. Even aircraft controls are designed this way (flap handle looks like a flap, gear handle looks like a wheel etc so you can tell them apart by touch.) As an example - if you have a spinning mal, and your harness rides up so high you can't even see your handles, and finally you grab a soft pad - which one is it? Will the cutaway handle always be on the left in a spinning mal?
It is quite possible to have two handles that feel different but are both pad-style. It's not hard. Have one be larger, or smaller, or more padded.
>The "If I am injured I want to be able to hook the reserve handle w/ my thumb".
>Ok, but how are you going to hook your thumb in your cutaway handle?
A friend of mine once saved her life because she managed to do just that after a freefall collision knocked her out. She didn't need to cut away because there was no main out. In most cases freefall collisions happen in freefall, so having an easy to pull reserve is a plus even without an easy to pull cutaway.
>If a pillow is good enough for the cutaway handle (which is probably going to
> harder to pull than the reserve handle), why is it a bad idea for the reserve
>handle? I haven't heard a sensible argument against pillow reserve handles yet.
I don't think it makes sense to want to make either handle "harder to pull" than the other. Consider the results of an accidental pull of either handle at 100 feet under a canopy, or a hard pull of either handle in freefall at 1000 feet. Looking at those two cases, you would actually _want_ the cutaway handle to be hard to pull and the reserve to be easy.
Of course, It goes without saying that both should be secure.
-bill von

[billvon 2,991]

>If pillows are so bad why are they on 99% of the rigs out there?
Out here, 80% of reserve handles are hard. Also, keep in mind that popularity is no indication of reliablility - nearly everyone uses small 3-ring systems (even intergity type small 3-rings) and they are not as reliable as large 3-rings when manufacturing tolerances and high-G cutaways are taken into account. The best that can be said is that they are reliable enough. (And they look cool on small rigs, which is a much bigger factor.)
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

>The cutaway handle can be far harder to pull than the reserve handle. So the "I
> want to get a solid grip on my reserve handle" theory doesn't hold water.
"Well, no. If a cutaway handle is hard to pull, the solution is to make it easier to pull - not to make the reserve handle just as hard to pull. That's going backwards, not forwards.
One good solution is the one used on Strong tandem rigs. There's a pocket behind the cutaway handle to allow you to get your fingers inside the handle before pulling it. It greatly increases your ability to grip it."
My point was if a pillow handle works for a cutaway handle, why do you need a better grip on the reserve handle which is easier to pull? I don't think grip on a pillow has been a factor in hard pulls. I don't think I have ever heard a story where someone experienced a hard pull and couldn't get a good enough grip on a pillow handle.
>"I want two different handles so I don't pull them in the wrong order". I hope a
> skydiver can know their left from their right.
"Well, you can hope, but experience has shown that even pilots of twin-engine planes have problems with left and right - and they get more training than skydivers do. One such error (among other things) killed several skydivers at Perris ten years ago.
I think it's important to have a tactile difference between the handles. Even aircraft controls are designed this way (flap handle looks like a flap, gear handle looks like a wheel etc so you can tell them apart by touch.) As an example - if you have a spinning mal, and your harness rides up so high you can't even see your handles, and finally you grab a soft pad - which one is it? Will the cutaway handle always be on the left in a spinning mal?"
With aircraft, the enginge controls (on twins/multi) are nect to each other. On rigs, the handles should stay on their respective sides. Right hand to cutaway and left to reserve handle. It is easier than aircraft controls, where you are matching up instruments to the correct engine to the correct control lever. I have heard the story of the harness getting shifted around on Rick Horn and he couldn't reach one of his handles. He did still know which handle he had and which one he didn't. I think pre-mature deploymens outnumber severly shifted harnesses.
"It is quite possible to have two handles that feel different but are both pad-style. It's not hard. Have one be larger, or smaller, or more padded."
I agree.
>The "If I am injured I want to be able to hook the reserve handle w/ my thumb".
>Ok, but how are you going to hook your thumb in your cutaway handle?
"A friend of mine once saved her life because she managed to do just that after a freefall collision knocked her out. She didn't need to cut away because there was no main out. In most cases freefall collisions happen in freefall, so having an easy to pull reserve is a plus even without an easy to pull cutaway."
That has got to be very rare, concious enough to decide to pull reserve instead of main and pull a hard handle but not concious enough to pull a pillow.
>If a pillow is good enough for the cutaway handle (which is probably going to
> harder to pull than the reserve handle), why is it a bad idea for the reserve
>handle? I haven't heard a sensible argument against pillow reserve handles yet.
"I don't think it makes sense to want to make either handle "harder to pull" than the other. Consider the results of an accidental pull of either handle at 100 feet under a canopy, or a hard pull of either handle in freefall at 1000 feet. Looking at those two cases, you would actually _want_ the cutaway handle to be hard to pull and the reserve to be easy.
My point was if the cutaway handle is harder to pull then the reserve handle and a pillow works for the cutaway handle, then a pillow will defiantely work for a reserve handle because it is easier to pull.
"Of course, It goes without saying that both should be secure."
Of course :-)
Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

I meant that 99% of rigs have pillow handles for the cutaway handle and it doesn't seem to be a problem. There isn't a movement to replace pillow cutaway handles with a hard handle. No one seems to mind. I have listened to people (at the DZ) talk about how they can't get a good grip on a pillow, they want to be able to hook their thumb in the hande, etc. when I point to the pillow on their cutaway handle and ask them how they plan on pulling that pillow, they say, "Oh, that's different, I can pull that one." I don't follow their logic. If someone doesn't feel comfortable w/ a pillow for a reserve handle, cool, you shoul be comfortable w/ your gear, but I don't see a hard handle as better than a soft pillow (for me) or that a hard handle is a bad gear choice for that matter. As w/ most things in skydiving, it is a trade off and the best course of action is to arm yourself with knowledge and make an informed decision that is best for you.
Hook