Barrel Roll after a track

[rendezvous 0]

Just curious to know how many of you make sure that everything above you is clear at the end of the track and just before opening. If you do, what methods or procedures do you practice for it.

[Remster 30]

here we go again...............
MY job is to make sure I do not track over anyone. So therefore I make sure no one is below me. If at opening time, I am not looking below, then I am endangering myself and my fellow jumpers.
Your job (if you jump with me) is to do the same. Its a basic principle of formation skydiving.
Remster
Muff 914

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Me!
I barrell roll before I pull.....
To roll, get a good speed up and then cork screw your body by 'twisting' your upper torso/shoulders, or from your delta track, throw one hand across your chest, this will cause you to BR.....Then a big body flare ( stop forward motion by 'braking' de-arching slightly, followed by a big arch ), and a wave off before pitching the PC. Practice it, its fun Cya
D

[Zennie 0]

I do, and that's all I'm saying.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Rem....biting my lip, I'm not advocating back tracking.....doh, lets not go there again........
Cya
D

[AndyMan 7]

I try to keep track of people as I turn and track. If I'm concerned because I think somebody is missing, or I'm unsure of where somebody is, then I'll do a barrel roll.
On bigger ways I only concern myself with those in my quadrant.... Do I know where everyone is? No? Barrel-roll...
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[rgoper 0]

AndyMan:
i'm on board with everything you just stated. while when freeflying it does present a whole different scenario than rw, then my *suggestion* is to most certainly do a barrel roll after tracking away. having said that, how many of us have a "back up plan" say, there is someone in our quadrant at this time? just some thoughts for safety............
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[steve1 5]

I've never done a barrel roll in a RW dive. It might be a very good idea, though if it could be done quickly enough. Trying to twist your neck up 180 degrees doesn't work too well. I know a lot of times I've spent a lot of time waving off and then gritted my teeth hoping no one was above me, because it's next to impossible to tell for sure if someone is there. I also had a friend killed (two years ago at Chicago) on opening. On that jump he was in the air with about 300 people, but things like that also happen even on little ways. I'm wondering what others think of doing a quick barrel roll. Is this a good plan??? I suppose once you flip right side up to open, someone could still come tracking in as your chute deploys, so maybe this isn't perfect either. Steve

[Jessica 0]

I do a quick check over each shoulder before I wave off. It's less time-consuming than a barrel roll, but probably less effective. That, coupled with trying very hard to stay aware of where everyone else is, is enough so I'm not terrifed on deployment.

[freeflir29 0]

Big fan of the barrel roll. I used to do it really quickly. As my confidence in my flying skills has gone up I have started to spend a little longer on my back. I tend to track for about 2 seconds to get some speed and seperation and then roll onto my back for another two. During the back flying I try to spot everyone that is on the dive. It normally works and I can also check for any not so smart people that could have drifted over me in free fall. If there is someone there I'll start flipping them off and tracking like hell while I keep an eye on them and try to get away. If they are still there at 2000 I'm going to pull and hope they miss me. "It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

i'm on board with everything you just stated. while when freeflying it does present a whole different scenario than rw, then my *suggestion* is to most certainly do a barrel roll after tracking away. having said that, how many of us have a "back up plan" say, there is someone in our quadrant at this time? just some thoughts for safety............

I won't disgree - just that when freeflying the groups are always smaller - to me at least, even though it's on three dimensions instead of two I do a pretty good job of keeping track of where everybody is. I'll only barell-roll if I don't know where somebody is.
I would much rather know where eveybody is and not worry about someone being over me, then have to be checking my space at pull time. This means being aware of where people are going both at break off time and throughout the track - being aware throughout the whole process.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Might I add to your thoughts on safety? ->
As our military friends might say - 'Train as you fight, fight as you train.' - what you are going to do on small ways (be it belly or freak flying) is going to carry over to bigger ways. The more you practice it under controlled circumstances, the faster and more comfortable you will be doing it when it might really count and save your life.
Just my addition to the fray

• Quote

[kmcguffee 0]

I hold the belief that I can be just as "dead right" as I can be "dead wrong" so I always barrel roll before dumping when on formation dives. I call it "defensive dumping" as opposed to "defensive driving".
I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters.

[RichM 0]

I do about the same as you freeflir29. In addition I have started my group of regular FFers doing a "no more work" wave at 4500ft as normal, and then just hanging there for a couple of seconds and checking where everyone is and looking up. So we're all sure we know the air is clear before we go flat and cork up.
Rich

[billvon 2,991]

>I tend to track for about 2 seconds to get some speed and seperation and then
>roll onto my back for another two.
I strongly recommend against this on RW dives. A quick roll to check for traffic is one thing; ensuring you cannot see below you for a full half of your track is asking for trouble. You are guaranteed to miss seeing someone beneath you, and it's likely the person below you will not see you either.
-bill von

[PhreeZone 20]

On a normal FF dive the break should be between 5500 and 5000, going lower does not allow you to slow down all the way before opening.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[kallend 2,027]

Just make sure you track better than everyone else, and there won't be anyone above you to worry about.

[steve1 5]

I'm sure most people know this, but it's also important not to track too long in the direction where another group of jumpers may be. I did this last winter at Perris. We turned several points in a RW dive, and I kind of lost track of directions. We broke off at around 4,000, turned 180 degrees and tracked off. We all had good separation. I tracked a little further to make sure I was in the clear when I noticed this strange canopy blossom up about 500 ft. below me. There was plenty of clearance, but I had tracked right above another group of jumpers. Not smart. Waiting 7 to 10 seconds between groups works well most of the time, but other variables can mess this up, such as someone tracking too long in the wrong direction. Steve

[freeflyfree 0]

DUUUUUDE! that reminds me!!!!!! this almost turned out ugly It could have been really something ....let me get the video...and I'll post it somewhere, and I'll let you know. But any way, we where on a big way sit, and then this girl gets separated, she floats....around 8.000 ft....well we get to the base (a heavy guy) then it's time to track...around (6000), by the time we are tracking...I see her rush pass me, man It was very cloese! anyway this video is from a friend of mine....There is also another footage from my point of view of another jump check it ou!....I think If I had done a Barrel roll I could Have seen her...but then I don't lnow...later after the jump I went and told her how close we got there, but nothing else...she is my friend and I'm aware that she noticed it too...so no hard feelings with her...
here is the address, http://communities.msn.com/FreeFlyFree
then go to Documents and it's there inside the skydiving folder....make a right click on the file and then select "save target as"
Felipe
Blue Skies
NO FEAR, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[freeflyfree 0]

allright, here are some video-captures of the above mentioned video....in this one I'm tracking (orange pants in left hand side of picture) and she is still falling in a sit after our 6000ft break off.....following is another video-capture so you can compare....
Blue Skies
NO FEAR, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[freeflyfree 0]

and here is half a secon later....to see the complete video go to
http://communities.msn.com/FreeFlyFree
then go to documents then to the folder "skydiving"
then right click on the file and chose "save target as"...and there you go...
Blue Skies
NO FEAR, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[FallRate 0]

Not to be an asshole, but while tracking people need to also be sure that they are not tracking under someone else. Then there is the possibility of directly into someone else. To be safe you have to check everywhere; you have to clear your airspace.
FallRate

[polarbear 1]

I usually jump at a small cessna DZ, so I don't have too many people to worry about. But, when I turn and track, I put my head on my chest to look behind me to see where other people are going.
Doing a barrell roll while tracking to check overhead airspace seems like a good idea, but I think the primary responsibility is to check the airspace underneath you. Why? Because it is the unspoken standard...it is easier to see below than over, so if everyone checks below, there shouldn't be problems. If you flip on your back for too long of a time, you are canceling the ability to check beneath you and thus breaking the chain.
Maybe this is something every DZ should standardize, sort of like a left or right hand landing pattern.

[Remster 30]

Quote

but while tracking people need to also be sure that they are not tracking under someone else

Yes, and the way to do that is to track flat and fast.
There are enough danger in the track part of a skydive, there's no need to add any by blinding yourself from whats below and in front of you, which is what you would probably do with a barrel roll.
I'll re-itterate what I've said in the last thread on this: if you have that good a positional knowledge and 3d perspective and are able to analyse what you see during a 1/2 second barrel roll when you know you're 200 feet from your pull altitude (are you sude that flash you saw during you roll was directly above, not above and way behing you, of the the side), then be my guest, coz I'm not a good enough skydiver to recommend you anything then...
Remster
Muff 914

[LawnDart21 0]

My .02, it could be argued either way, barrell roll or no barrell roll while tracking. My personal opinion is that a barrell role is unnecessary for me, because
1) I can out track anyone I jump with, so if I pay attention at break off to the directions everyone else is going and then turn and track like my life depends on it (which it does essentially), there will be no one above me when I deploy. no one can keep up with me. My only concern is someone below me, which I can deal with during my track. Lastly, before deploying, a quick head swivel can check the air above me, doesn't take as long as a barrell role.
2) Most people don't know this (because there is no real point of reference) but that when most jumpers barrell role, they change their trajectory, even if only by a few degrees, but those few degrees, may be enough to put you over someone else. Any one that says, I can role straight without changing directory, I would say, unless you have a friend flying video behind you in a straight line and they video your barrell role showing zero degrees of variance in your track, then no one can argue emphatically that they do not change course in thier track from a barrel role.
3) Icarus has two '69 and 1/2" square foot crossfire canopies at their office that were sent out as one 139 sq ft crossfire demo. The reason they now have two canopies instead of one, is that a jumper with 300+ jumps decided that a barrell role was the best way to check his airspace above him and when he turned back over on his belly and deployed, he tore right through the center cell of another jumper who mysteriously ended up below him....... Both jumpers walked away from the accident, but it could have killed them both. Tore the canopy right down the center cell nose to tail.
Okay, that's my soap box preaching, right or wrong, yes, or no, if you choose to do a barrell role, cool, just be aware ofthe added risks and consequences and stay safe up there.
"I live to EFS"
Tom