D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[awsee1 0]

I can, not that it's all that important. What's important is that the FBI (ckret?) not make the mistake of past investigators. Regardless of whether or not this case remains unsolved, it is imperative that the BUREAU run through this investigation by the numbers, and not make silly statements WRT the stated profile and tolerance, and elimination of suspects thereon.

B.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Yes, please post. We've been asking for a write up on Mayfield and none has been made.

To answer the question if I'm upset that Mayfield hasn't been investigated. Yes. I think every person in the Northwest who has ever purchased property and has jump experience should be investigated without cause.

In other words, post. please.

[Ckret 0]

Jose9878,

Thats a big area if your goal is to hit a DZ where someone has parked a car or your relying on landing near a road.

[Ckret 0]

Jose9878, it was going to be a night jump. Even if everything got there on time by 5 PM it's dark.

[Ckret 0]

Over 1000 subjects were investigated. What are you basing your judgment on that Mayfield was not investigated or anyone else for that matter.

Also, and this is the whole reason for going public, what information do you have linking Mayfield to the hijacking. No investigative work has ever linked anyone to the hijacking. Yes, I can have an opinion but my opinion does not make it so. It is a large leap from opinion to proof.

Every subject investigation had a set procedure and every subject was investigated the same way so nothing would be missed. It was done on all of them.

I am more than willing to look at any viable subjects and if you have done any investigative work that links a person to the crime please bring it forward and thank you for your help.

[dbcoopercatcher 0]

I know it isn't part of the evidence, but things are not part of the evidence until they are found out. That does not mean they didn't happen. If there is any hope of solving this case, it must come from the understanding that there is so much more about the case that is not known than is known. This includes me and ergo, the case is still unsolved. There are solved cases with convictions where there is still plenty parts within the case unsolved but only speculated.
I speculate (and still find it neither likely or unlikely - but possible) that he got close, jumped with a walkie talkie to a beaconed accomplice that picked him up. His buddy had been sitting in the car listening to the news about it and knew they needed an alibi. Speculation, yes. Possible, yes.
Cooper didn't give a route? He said no to some alternatives and picked Reno below 10,000 ft. with the plane in a fuel guzzling attitude. There was only one safe route - the one down I-5.
Blind?

[jose9878 0]

Sure it's a big area, he could have jumped anywhere from Seattle to Reno (in his mind Seattle to Mexico City). Isn't that what you would want? Throws off those searching for you. Big DZ, little DB. Who's to say he didn't plan on jumping in Oregon, Nevada or Arizona? Draw a line from Seattle to Mexico City & look at the possibilities. The fact is nobody really knows where he jumped, it's assumed he jumped where the pressure bumps were registered. Your statement above also assumes he had an accomplice, that he had a DZ planned & that he jumped north/south of Lake Merwin. I'm not assuming anything.
Also, I keep reading about difficult tree landings in heavily wooded areas near Lake Merwin...do a quick google earth search south of Lake Merwin & you will see that there are plenty of fields to land in, next to plenty of roads (of course, here I'm assuming that the area looks similar now to what it did in '71). The fact is this guy outsmarted the law & got away with $200,000.
Has anyone tried to re-create the jump, no sled, real jumpers? I'm sure there are plenty of skydivers who would jump on the chance. Hire a 727, outfit jumpers with a dummy load, take off from Seattle & see if the stairs really do create a pressure bump. Will the pilots notice the jumpers leaving the aircraft? I don't recall the stairs slamming back up & hitting the tail when I jumped the 727 at the WFFC (of course they could have jimmy rigged them to stay down). I don't recall any pressure bumps & I was in the cabin. The pilots were in the cockpit with the door shut. Pressure bumps??? Seems to me there's lots of assumptions in this case. The guy died on the jump. The money rolled down stream. He jumped where the pilots felt the pressure bumps...it goes on & on.

[skyjack71 0]

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I don't think it would have necessarily been a "blind" jump. .

Duane told me about an area that you could see the lights from for a long ways. I think this is what he used to site his area. Also at the time of the jump the weather WAS not as bad as the media has made it sound. Weather toward the mountain and north of Portland was a different thing - when you got in closer Portland.

[skyjack71 0]

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Yes Mayfield called the FBI less than two hours after the jump.

To add to the mix, whoever Cooper was, when he jumped he did not know where he was. He jumped totally blind, in that he did not give direction to the crew nor did he ever ask for and update as to where the aircraft was at any point prior to the jump. If Cooper somehow knew the flight path and was counting on a dropzone along the flight path, he still would have had to ask for an update from the crew. And even then with the winds

Ckret you are buying too much into the hype - the weather was NOT consistent - some places were better than others on that night. There were even people who claimed they SAW the plane.

[skyjack71 0]

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IQUOTED HIS STATEMENTS. Am I reading wrong - one time he says Tina wouldn't talk then claims she did and offered her phone number up - I guess I am just too tired.

CATCHER SAYS:
I have never been on a thread with you that got shut down. Tina talked with us enough to let us know she wouldn't talk with us - two different senses of the phrase. Does that satisfy you? With our limited resources and access, Tina was very difficult to find and I will not share her info with anyone. The FBI could probably find her near instantaneously, I'm sure. This also contradicts something I said but was tongue in cheek.
Okay?

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JO STATES:
Thisis the same Gibberish you did before. I am not asking for Tina's number - I have her contact information if it hasn't changed. YOU are the one who was offering it UP in another post.

You ALSO KNOW that thread got LOCKED down --WHY deny it?

Catcher - you put me in the hospital before and this time I won't let you do it. The only thing I am coming back to do - is to post the supposed route that Duane followed - as per the things he told me. THIS is something I think the jumpers who live in the area should know...then I am through.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LETTER TO FORUM
Dear Drop Zone and Jumpers:

I want to thank Drop Zone for allowing me to be here and to Thank ALL of you Wonderful GUYs and GALs out there who have been so helpful...We covered a lot of ground this past yr. ... we explored a lot of can and cannot do's. We did all of this without constantly having to repeat ourselves...we had some intelligent conversations regarding the mechanics of the jump (ALL very good).

We explored other suspects - and we shared what we knew about these suspects...but, I draw the line when someone accuses a person and offers Nothing that says he did the crime. They have already taken Mayfield onto National TV and the FBI nor any authorities found any reason to investigate him. I frankly hope he sues the XXXX out of them.

Maybe this is somewhat similar to my suspect but Duane Confessed to the Crime and he provided me with some details that I could not know and he left evidence which I didn't understand and hence sold and gave away. What I have been doing is only trying to prove what he told me. Mayfield is being openly accused without his accuser ever really stating anything in the way of Evidence or Proof that Mayfield was involved. I frankly think these people have some kind of vendeta against Mayfield, but that is my opinion.

If I am allowed by the forum I will post that route, but I am not here to play games and antagonize others - I was told some were annoyed by "Mouse", but it was a sutle clue that I do not care to disclose in a public forum.

"Mouse" Let's get this Show On the Road and Minnie, I got your message loud and clear when you told me "We all have a little Larcency in our hearts". Blue Skies to you both of you and I miss you both. Mouse never stopped loving Minnie - they lived their life on the edge - this was the high that made the it work.

[Ckret 0]

'If you open the airstairs in flight they won't lock because their gravity operated (1971). As Cooper walked down the stairs his body weight caused them to lower and the closer he got to the end the lower they went. When he jumped and removed his weight they snapped back causing a pressure wave that was not only felt but picked up on cockpit equipment. It was found through testing the only way to cause this pressure bump was by the stairs hitting back against the aircraft when a weight was removed.

[Ckret 0]

How did you arrive at these speculations, what did you base them on. It is these speculations that make Mayfield a subject but if there is no basis for them then Mayfield cannot be Cooper. In an investigation you can't dismiss parts of the investigation and then create what is not there so someone fits. You can have theory, you can have speculation and you can guess, but when you come to the point that your stating x person did it, you to have connected at least some dots. Nothing I know of links Mayfield to the crime. So again I ask for your help.

Please help me understand how you arrive so strongly at Mayfield. To come out as strong as you have stating that Mayfield is Cooper you must have more than speculation. And Reno was not the only safe route, there is another route down the coast that the NW pilots were going to take until just before take off.

[normiss 798]

Could it be possible (or was it tested as well) that he jumped on the stairs like a diving board trying to get them to lock? Were they locked when the plane landed?

[skypuppy 1]

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How did you arrive at these speculations, what did you base them on. It is these speculations that make Mayfield a subject but if there is no basis for them then Mayfield cannot be Cooper. In an investigation you can't dismiss parts of the investigation and then create what is not there so someone fits. You can have theory, you can have speculation and you can guess, but when you come to the point that your stating x person did it, you to have connected at least some dots. Nothing I know of links Mayfield to the crime. So again I ask for your help.

Please help me understand how you arrive so strongly at Mayfield. To come out as strong as you have stating that Mayfield is Cooper you must have more than speculation. And Reno was not the only safe route, there is another route down the coast that the NW pilots were going to take until just before take off.

__________________________________________________

How can the fbi be so sure that the phone call actually came in from Maybield? Couldn't he have had one of his buddies call? This may have been mentioned already but when was the first time Mayfield was actually seen by law enforcement after the incident? Any ideas?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[stratostar 5]

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If I am allowed by the forum I will post that route, but I am not here to play games and antagonize others - I was told some were annoyed by "Mouse", but it was a sutle clue that I do not care to disclose in a public forum.

WHY even bring up then? You say you not here to play games and antagonize people! Yet you then post such crap as statements like above. I ask you again why? Who the hell do you think is reading that crap and will have a light bulb go off in their head? Agent Carr? Some other little old lady DW was dating or married to way back then who has had the big clue all these years and didn't know it till she read your BIG HINT because she is here reading your banter of beating around the bushes with tid bits of hint's and it all now becomes clear to her, yea the big crime sleuth put it all together after all these years and FBI man hours.

Yet you duck and dodge and offer VERY LITTLE of proof to back your claim and when I called you on it, you get all upset about it! Hey I'm NOT the one who yelled in public DB COOPER, DB COOPER, you did! And anyone who says other wise is "picking on you" and being mean to you. Again you SOUND like a nut case, now that is not saying you are a nut case! But try stepping back and looking at the bigger picture here at your repeated talking in clues-hints and beating around the bush, all the while you tout how bad your health is and how you don't have much time to waste, yet you seem to see fit to waste our time with your bullshit hints and clues that NO ONE knows what the hell your talking about!

If you really wanted the truth to be known then you STOP the bullshit and just lay it all out there in a factual manner and be able to back up what your saying, you know I have been more then willing to defend you and cover your back, but no longer Jo, your the one who shoots yourself in the foot in regards to the public and this is why so many people think your nuts, you did that to yourself by how you present your info or should I say lack there of.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Ckret 0]

the pressure increase was caused much like slamming a car door shut, same concept. Based on that I don't see how bouncing on the stairs could have caused the effect. I am not sure if they bounced on the stairs but it is my understanding they tried several ways to recreate what the crew felt and the instruments picked up and the only way was to push the weight off of the stairs.

The stairs were not locked when the plane landed.

[skyjack71 0]

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__________________________________________________

How can the fbi be so sure that the phone call actually came in from Maybield? Couldn't he have had one of his buddies call? This may have been mentioned already but when was the first time Mayfield was actually seen by law enforcement after the incident? Any ideas?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mayfield asked to speak to Himmelsbach and thus he did - according to the records and written material Himmelsbach has done. Himmelsbach has stated to me and others that Mayfield is not Cooper.

After personally speaking to Mayfield a while back and asking Himmelsbach his opinion - claims against Mayfield are nothing more than a personal vendeta for some reason not made to the public.

His accusers only Hint and NEVER state why they believe their accusation should be evaluated - they play with words that say nothing except to consume time, space and energy.

Can't let Mouse Go till he finishes his assignment:

Mouse leaves Ca. and heads to N.Y. for a Big Bang - NewYears - Times Square...Fun and Business in a neat package. Minnie is so Excited - but fearful.

[Orange1 0]

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How did you arrive at these speculations, what did you base them on. It is these speculations that make Mayfield a subject but if there is no basis for them then Mayfield cannot be Cooper. In an investigation you can't dismiss parts of the investigation and then create what is not there so someone fits. You can have theory, you can have speculation and you can guess, but when you come to the point that your stating x person did it, you to have connected at least some dots. Nothing I know of links Mayfield to the crime. So again I ask for your help.

Which of course is where the difficulty comes in being the FBI vs posting theories on websites or in newspapers, tv etc.

to dbcoopercatcher - even if it's not enough evidence for the FBI, is there a link you can post that will lead those of us who are interested, to the main reasons you so strongly think it was mayfield. awsee too, as he seems your best bet?

btw Jo, I really don't think it is evenhanded of you to slate the FBI on so many other things and then just accept himmelsbach's conclusions on mayfield?! (i mean... they say it wasn't duane and you don't believe them, they say it wasn't mayfield and you do?)

from what i can see, so far we have no more than circumstantial evidence on anyone... & we know circumstantial evidence has convicted the wrong people before, & we also know some people make false confessions. no proof anywhere yet. but, so far we still have (at least) 2 people for whom there appears to be various circumstantial evidence who, unlike Duane, we know could skydive (mayfield and christiansen); at least one trained for the kind of conditions the jump took place in (did anyone ever confirm whether or not mayfield did any military jumping?) and - ckret can you confirm - no DNA tests have been done yet? i know the arguments re the physical descriptions etc but still... it would be interesting.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Since no one was willing to make a post regarding Mayfield and why he may have been Cooper, I'll do it myself.

1. He called the FBI the night Norjack was born. Mayfield disputed this and said the FBI sought him out and he spoke with various agents at least 3 times. Some criminals have wanted to be part of the efforts to solve the very crime they committed. Perhaps Mayfield followed the same pattern or perhaps he purposely called the FBI to create an alibi.
The person who suggested that maybe it was a confederate of Mayfield who called had a good idea, however, if this was the case, the confederate might have wanted to call while Mayfield was still in the air as to make his alibi even more rock solid.

The call in question was placed between 90 & 120 minutes following the jump (9:41 to 10:11 pm).

2. Mayfied WAS a military paratrooper before he became a world class skydiver. He was a world class skydiver at the time of the crime.

3. Mayfield lived very close to PDX in Nov 71. He could have walked to the airport without using a taxicab, bus, or vehicle.

4. Allegedly Mayfield was broke and in finanical ruin at the time of the crime. This aspect has not been explained.

5. From what I've heard, Mayfield and some partners purchased a sizable property in 1972 to run a business out of. Assuming #4 is correct, this would tend to infer that his partners did not have the cash for the downpayment (or was it purchased outright?) to get this business up and running.

6. Mayfield has been convicted of armed robbery & flying a stolen plane across state lines.

7. At least 12 people wanting to help the FBI with leads called the FBI and told them to look into Mayfield because they felt he had the expertise and the criminal intent to pull it off.

8. He allegedly lied about his whereabouts the night of the crime. However we haven't heard anything further about this.

9. A 1974 photo of Mayfield matches the Shaffner sketch of 1988, complete with strong widows peak (or male patterned baldness as one DZ poster described it).

Since this post was in response to the various people, myself included, to please outline the reasons why DD feels 99% confident that Mayfield was Cooper, I have some questions of my own...
1. This has been researched thoroughly? Then please post some information regarding the property purchase. What were the terms of sale? Who financed it? What partners, if any, were involved? Was there any other type of loan that Mayfield obtained during this time (such as SBA)?
2. Please post the 1974 picture.
3. Please explain the alibi that he lied about.
4. Please give some reasoning behind the basis of his dire straights in 1971... for example, eye witness says he was evicted, there's a bankruptcy on his record in 71, he sold off his possessions in 71, something.
5. Please post anything I've omitted or have errored.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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(i mean... they say it wasn't duane and you don't believe them, they say it wasn't mayfield and you do?)

Actually, "they" never said it wasn't Mayfield. Himmelsbach said this. He's on video saying this. The fact that he remembers Mayfield means Ralph was aware of Ted throughout his portion of the investigation. We've heard nothing official from the FBI other than no suspect has ever been proven to be Cooper. We don't know why Himmelsbach is comfortable enough to plainly say Mayfield was not Cooper, other than the phone call.

Also, "they" never said it wasn't Duane. Ckret reported that DNA collected from Skyjack71 did not match any of the donors found on the tie left behind. He has said that he thinks this means Weber is no longer a viable suspect.

I contend that we haven't heard enough about Christiansen, Mayfield, or the DNA regarding Weber to rule out any of these people.

[Orange1 0]

semantics!! OK then... "various FBI agents involved with the cooper investigation at various times have decided there was not enough evidence to consider either mayfield or weber as a viable suspect"...

Entirely agreed about the DNA. Like i said.. would love to see the results of tests on that of christiansen and mayfield. Conspiracy theories about "switching" the tie aside, it has to be a strong bet that some of the various DNA on it belongs to Cooper. So personally, I think ckret's conclusion is probably right. But the only way to know for sure is to find someone whose DNA does match what's on the tie!

btw thanks for the summary on mayfield. fwiw, he has also been convicted of negligent homicide, though that may not be as "relevant" as the other convictions you mention. If some of the gaps re your questions can be filled in, would be interesting. So far all completely circumstantial and other than the criminal history, not dissimilar from the bare bones of the christiansen speculation (which is mainly: knew the area, could skydive, did purchase property not long after hijacking which on the face of it should not have been able to afford)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[jose9878 0]

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Cooper was no expert skydiver. “We originally thought Cooper was an experienced jumper, perhaps even a paratrooper,” says Special Agent Carr. “We concluded after a few years this was simply not true. No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200-mile-an-hour wind in his face, wearing loafers and a trench coat. It was simply too risky. He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shut—something a skilled skydiver would have checked.”

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Cooper never made the request that the chutes not come from McCord, his only demand was two back and two front chutes. In fact he assumed they were coming from McCord from a mistake the pilot made in relaying information to Tina. At 5:15 Tina called the cockpit to find out why they had not landed (Cooper wanted everything by 5 PM), the pilot told Tina they were still waiting for the front chutes from McCord. When Tina relayed this to Cooper his response was, "McCord is only 20 minutes from Tacoma, it doesn't take that long."

-Shortly after 3:00pm while waiting to take-off from Portland the note was passed to the stewardess.
-The flight from Portland to Seattle is a short 30 minute hop – arrival should have been shortly after 3:30pm. We know the Portland departure was shortly after 3:00pm. What was the scheduled take-off time from Portland? I apologize if this has been posted.
-Cooper wanted everything by 5:00pm. He knew it was a short 20 minutes from McCord to Tacoma.

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No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200 mile an hour wind in his face, wearing loafers & a trench coat. It was simply too risky.

True statement but I don’t think that his plan was to jump at 8:11pm. Pitch-black night, there was a half moon out. In the rain, it was scattered showers. 200 mile an hour wind in his face, it was 170+ mph with flaps & wheels down. Wearing loafers, ok...most likely but not certain. What do you think of an experienced parachutists jumping at dusk/sunset. This would make it difficult for anyone on the ground to see the parachute, especially if the jump was planned to occur shortly after take-off, sometime between 4:00pm – 5:00pm. What was the weather like between 3:30 – 5:00pm? After all, he did give the note to the stewardess before the flight took off from Portland, add it up…..30 minute flight, 1 hour for the money/chutes to arrive & you have a Seattle take off time of roughly 4:30pm – bingo – daylight/dusk/sunset. Had the money & equipment arrived within an hour of the scheduled landing in Seattle the jump may have been made shortly before or at dusk/sunset. As it turns out I don’t think the weather hampered his plan, it probably assisted his plan when his plan changed. For example, the chase planes didn’t see him jump & the search was post-poned due to the weather. Concluding that he was not an experienced jumper because of the weather conditions & time of the jump just doesn’t add up to me.

Regarding the reserve - there is always the possibility that he knew the reserve was a training reserve. He may not have planned on using it. How many skydivers plan on using their reserve on every jump? How many BASE jumpers carry a reserve? Take the dummy reserve with you & throw off those searching for you, if that's the case - it worked. After all no experienced skydiver would jump with a dummy reserve. Wait a minute, wasn’t there a guy who recently jumped with no chute? He did land under one, did he have a reserve? And what about the Mr. Bill that landed? No reserve needed.

Regarding the shoes (this may be far-fetched but why not) – Is it a known fact that Cooper was not on the previous flight? There would have been no reason for the flight attendants to take notice, especially if he was not wearing sunglasses on that flight. He could have stored boots & other equipment on the plane, disembarked, purchased a new ticket & re-board….he was second to last to board. How long was the airplane on the ground at Portland? Was there enough time for this scenario?

My point is there was a point-of-no-return. I believe this was when he handed the stewardess the note. Beyond this time which was shortly after 3:00pm he was committed to jumping regardless of time of day, weather, delays or anything else that came up (calling his bluff). After the note was passed it was either jump & live happily ever after, jail, death or any combination.

I just can't see a non-skydiver attempting this. Many tandem passengers freeze at the door or refuse to jump. Ckret - take a trip to Kapowsin or Snohimish & try a tandem. After your jump let us know if a whuffo would jump from "a perfectly good airplane".

Regarding the pressure bumps - I didn't realize the aircraft equipment picked up the pressure bumps. With this info I would agree that more than likely that's were he jumped.

[jose9878 0]

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Jose9878, it was going to be a night jump. Even if everything got there on time by 5 PM it's dark.

A tid-bit more info to support my previous post;

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department

Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Seattle, King County, Washington (longitude W122.3, latitude N47.6):

Wednesday
24 November 1971 Pacific Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:52 a.m.
Sunrise 7:27 a.m.
Sun transit 11:56 a.m.
Sunset 4:25 p.m.
End civil twilight 4:59 p.m.

MOON
Moonset 9:45 p.m. on preceding day
Moonrise 12:31 p.m.
Moon transit 5:40 p.m.
Moonset 11:01 p.m.
Moonrise 12:51 p.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 24 November: waxing crescent with 41% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

First quarter Moon on 25 November 1971 at 8:37 a.m. Pacific Standard Time.

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Census Bureau map of Seattle area

*Civil twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 6 degrees below the horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient, under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly distinguished; at the beginning of morning civil twilight, or end of evening civil twilight, the horizon is clearly defined and the brightest stars are visible under good atmospheric conditions in the absence of moonlight or other illumination. In the morning before the beginning of civil twilight and in the evening after the end of civil twilight, artificial illumination is normally required to carry on ordinary outdoor activities. Complete darkness, however, ends sometime prior to the beginning of morning civil twilight and begins sometime after the end of evening civil twilight.

[speedy 0]

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No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200 mile an hour wind in his face, wearing loafers & a trench coat. It was simply too risky.

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No one jumps out of an airplane, it' s just too risky.
There again, there are some that do.
No one jumps with elliptical canopy's in the dark with only a 500W light bulb to guide them to the landing zone.
There again, I did.
The terrain was awful.
He could not see that, maybe the plan was to jump a little earlier, or later.

Sorry, but from my experience albeit limited, there are always skydivers that think they can do anything and get away with it.

I can't say if he survived the jump, but sure as hell, an experienced skydiver would do the jump and learn the hard way.

just my 2 cents (Euro cents that is)

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[JerryBaumchen 1,357]

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5. From what I've heard, Mayfield and some partners purchased a sizable property in 1972 to run a business out of. Assuming #4 is correct, this would tend to infer that his partners did not have the cash for the downpayment (or was it purchased outright?) to get this business up and running.

I think you 'heard' wrong. In 1972 Ted LEASED the then abandoned airport at Sheridan, OR for his dz business. It was some time in the late '80's that he entered into a sales contract with the owner. He was not able to continue to make the req'd payments and the property reverted back to the seller.

JerryBaumchen