D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

WTF?

Tom & Jerry?

I realize that without Ckret on here, figuring out whatever portions of the crime we might be able to figure out become more challenging... BUT, the question I posted about how far someone can drift between 10,000 feet and ground 0 is a reasonable question for experienced jumpers.
I don't see why that has to be made fun of.

I spent time figuring out where the money has to land if it indeed did as the FBI has theorized for decades and I just want to confirm or deny if it's possible, and if possible, determine the most likely place it would have landed.

[BGill 0]

Quote

Thank you, that's what I thought.

Please look at the following map. You will see the estimated timeline along the flight path.

If we only take 8:11-8:12, then the distance from the jump point to what I referred to as the hot zone appears (eyeballing it) to be 14-17 miles if traveling in a straight line into the closest corner of the hot zone.

My question is this... let's assume Cooper does this SL style and pulls the chute as quickly as he can. If he pulls his chute close to 10,000 feet, what speed, if any, do the crosswinds needs to be in order for him to land in this zone?

Now, I just asked this question under the guise of Cooper pulling the rip cord... I realize if he pulls his rip cord and THEN dies upon impact, that creates some issues as well (deployed chute attached to a dead body that no one ever finds). I don't want to deal with that, I *only* want to know what has to be true for the theory of the floating money to also be true.

Rough estimates? Approximations? Calculated answers? They're all welcome. Thank you!!!

I don't have all the facts written down, and honestly I'm too lazy to go digging through this thread for answers, but what would be important to figure this out would be:

1. Winds aloft for that area that night (speed and direction)
2. Cooper's weight (170ish lbs, right?)
3. Weight of Cooper's gear (money and rig)
4. Size of the parachute
5. Exit altitude (if Cooper pulled right away that would give the max drift)

And from there you can figure out his wingloading, under a specific type of canopy, from a certain altitude, in certain wind conditions. I am not familiar with round canopies in the least bit so someone with more experience could probably chime in to guess what type of drift you could have expected, and in what direction.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

I don't see why that has to be made fun of. BUT, the question I posted about how far someone can drift between 10,000 feet and ground 0 is a reasonable question for experienced jumpers.

2.5.......Miles, yea 2.5 miles, definitely twooooo point five miles, that's two point five miles downwind, yea downwind 2.5, 2.5 miles downwind...........unless your a mouse then 5 mouse miles.........definitely five mouse miles defintely, definitley downwind!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Orange1 0]

Quote

, the question I posted about how far someone can drift between 10,000 feet and ground 0 is a reasonable question for experienced jumpers.

My only problem with this theory is: if the weather was as bad as we've been led to believe, opening close to 10K - leaving you much longer in that cold and the canopy much more in the rain (i'm assuming rain was bad for old canopies too?) - just would not make sense. If the weather was clear, it would have been a great theory.

Re the criticisms of Awsee/Mayfield.. they are as valid as any theory. There is NO hard evidence of anything yet. Lots of dots drawn together, different people join different dots and get different pictures.

As for ckret, give the guy a break. What's it been, a couple of days? Maybe he's on holiday, maybe he's out catching a real live identifiable criminal.. or maybe he's just tired of going round in circles here and being attacked for all real and perceived injustices suffered by any and all FBI agents of the last few decades...?

edited to clarify: the last 2 paragraphs are in general response to various posts, not directed at safecrackingPLF.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thanks BGill, Orange1, and Rainman.

I wasn't meaning to criticize the Mayfield theory, but maybe you were referring to the other poster who did. If I tell you that I think it was my uncle, then I'm also going to say WHY I think this way. No one, other than myself, has ever said why they think it was Mayfield... at least not on this forum.

BGill,
From memory I can approximate some of the response... I believe the canopy was 26', Cooper was between 170 and 180lbs, the money alone weighed I think 21 lbs, they used a 200lb sled to approximate Cooper's total weight, so I'd guess somewhere around 200lbs.

As for weather conditions, from what I recall on this thread, I've gotten mixed opinions. Ckret described a cloud cover at 5,000 feet. How thick this cloud cover is, I don't know... was it where he jumped, I don't know. We'll probably never know. The only ones who would know are the two captains. But, before we dig into the "problems" of assuming the FBI theory is incorrect, let's at least determine what has to be true if the theory were to also be true.

I agree, Carr is probably on vacation or apprehending bank robbers. He will have some catching up to do...
Thanks to those who have responded and to those who will respond further.

Edit: Follow up question... what would be a likely hang time if someone pulled the ripcord at 10,000 feet with a 26' round canopy and weighed roughly 200 pounds? Hang time... how many minutes do you think it would take to reach the ground? For simplicity sake, let's assume he lands at sea level (even though he'd have to actually land higher than this)

[Ckret 0]

I am here, believe it or not my real job is investigating bank robbery not DB Cooper. I was out on another matter and not able to post. I'll be back on this evening and try to catch up. I think the maps that were posted are wrong, I'll take a look when I get a chance. Remember the words of the "best damn cooler in the business", "be nice."

[SkydiveJack 1]

Quote

My question is this... let's assume Cooper does this SL style and pulls the chute as quickly as he can. If he pulls his chute close to 10,000 feet, what speed, if any, do the crosswinds needs to be in order for him to land in this zone?

Ok, I'll try. Since we don't have any exact figures to start with I will use some estimates.

Let's use a rate of descent on his canopy of 1000 ft. per minute. It would probably be a couple hundred more fpm but 1000 fpm is easier to start with.

Now he jumped at 10,000 ft. but we don't know what altitude he opened. But we are going to use 10,000 ft. for this estimate. Please don't start arguing about how he would be below that altitude by the time he got open or that the parachute would have blown up at that exit speed.

Now the field elevation is important here. The Vancouver airport is 25 ft. above sea level and an approach chart shows a few hills towards the hot zone at around 500 ft. So lets just call it 10,000 ft. that Cooper was under canopy for now.

So we come up with 10 minutes in the air under canopy.

With an average wind of 30 mph. and no forward speed from the parachute he would be blown 5 miles. If the winds were 45 mph he would be blown 7.5 miles.

Let's say the round parachute was modified and had a speed of 5 mph and Cooper ran with the wind the whole way down. In a 30 mph wind he would be blown 5.83 miles. In a 45 mph wind he would be blown 8.33 miles.

Now we know he really didn't have 10,000 ft under canopy so the time is less and the distance over the ground is less. 8 minutes under canopy with 45 mph winds and running with the wind on a 5 mph canopy would shorten the distance to 6.66 miles over the ground.

With 10 minutes air time and no forward air speed from the canopy the winds would have to average 90 mph for him to move 15 miles over the ground.




And we haven't even addressed the direction of the wind.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thank you!

You were making your post right as I was editing to ask the hang time estimate. I think that's an easier place to start... how long he's up in the air. The 10,000 feet figure makes it simple... if it turns out to be close, then we can debate the liklihood of 10,000 feet (because it's obviously less than this).

Looks like Ckret was just out catching criminals and he's stated he will have to correct the flight path... good, that's all we can ask. In the meantime, figuring out his time under the canopy will be helpful for when we do figure out the precise location of the jet.

Edit: FYI, I can't go back and fix this, but the first two maps on the tributary study, the lake pictured is actually Yale, not Merwin... but the water feeds into Merwin anyway further west. Just wanted to correct this error.

[Eliakim 0]

Well, that sounds pretty good, for an "outside number" on either side of the flight path (depending on the wind direction). Now, the next thing that is needed is a very accurate flight path for the area. Is that available?

[Ckret 0]

SCPLF,

Great work on the maps, I'll be back in the office in a few days and will post a map with LZ's that were calculated in 72 based on all the info from the jump. The most probable LZ was just due east of La Center if he did not open. From that spot draw a line to Bald Mountain. This line would (roughly) represent the most probable line where he could have landed. If he opened high he would have landed on the south face of Bald Mountain.

Of course this is all considering the crew was right with the time of 8:11 as his jump time.

[Ckret 0]

Bren,

The whole point in going public is to seek help in solving this case. If you have evidence that can assist in the effort please bring it forward, your help would be greatly appreciated. To date there is nothing that links anyone to the Cooper hijacking. There are opinions, speculations and guesses, but not one piece of evidence that can link anyone to the crime.

Is there anything that you know of that would fit this criteria?

[awsee1 0]

Quote

I made a post with 9 reasons, including that he matched the 88 composite (of which I have no proof of this because I've never seen the 1974 picture and it has never been posted here).

Safe,

I'll look for your youtube post, haven't seen it yet. Perhaps you could at least let us know which vid it's under.

I've heard about this picture, but I'm perplexed about some things, really perplexed. Suddenly I start to think about trust and Phoenix, and I'm even more perplexed.

B.

[low_pull1 2]

Please look at the following map. You will see the estimated timeline along the flight path.

what is the rate of decent on the canopy that cooper used?

What were the winds?

superimpose this on the map and what do we get.

[low_pull1 2]

200lb
...........

at 200 lb..he might have broken his leg or....... he might have fell out of a tree while lumbering and broke his leg

[skyjack71 0]

Mississippi 1, Missisipp1 2 and so fourth till you get to a certain number - I heard him singing this to a baby - but I realize it is a count-down method if you don't have an altimeter - and in the dark I doubt he could have seen it.

Don't forget that the plane was changing something in direction every 10 sec after it went accross Merwin. Why would it have been doing that? Crosswinds?
Maybe ? All these posts about the plane I do not understand. I just thought that what I read about the plane and its zigzag pattern should be accounted for.

This is something I know nothing about.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Face it - THe FBI is not going to do anything until they have more evidence - One just as well check the DNA against James Earl Ray who was in prison at that time.

Maybe I wasn't being a smart mouth with that statement! Quilt does a lot of things to a man and being used can create a BIG grudge.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I didn't put a post on YouTube... I went there to watch interviews by two guys who studied Mayfield. Based on those interviews, I came up with 8 reasons why it was Mayfield and then added that he matched the 88 composite for a total of 9.

Of the 9 items, we've only had confirmation of one of them... and it plainly disputed what I had written.

Thanks LowPull... will wait for Ckret to give us more information and then figure it all out like you outlined.

[awsee1 0]

Quote

Of the 9 items, we've only had confirmation of one of them... and it plainly disputed what I had written.

Please elaborate on the "9" and the one??

Please elaborate on this 88 composite. I'm aware of 2 popular sketches. One is a very skinny nosed thin man, and the other could be just about anyone. I've seen Weber compared to the "anyone" sketch, and McCoy compared to "stick-man". The FBI has proffered these sketches and I've got to believe they're just about it, sucks doesn't it?

I've heard of an original Roy Rose sketch, not sure on this one. I heard something about an Unsolved Mysteries sketch, and I've searched in vain, but cannot find it. Do you have it?

Thanks for sharing, but you've got to give me something. What do you have to help solve this case?

Thanks,


PHOENIX

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Please see pages 40-42 for the recent discussion of Mayfield. You were making posts in those pages, so I don't understand the confusion.

In 1988, Florence Schaffner helped to create a new composite sketch of Dan Cooper. This was filmed by Unsolved Mysteries. This sketch was posted on this forum in late November/early December.

Interesting theories regarding the different sketches. "stick" figure sketch and "anyone" sketch. I always thought the sketch that could fit almost anyone was the less detailed one, known as the Bing Crosby sketch but I learn something new everyday!

Skyjack71, didn't you mention on several occasions in this forum & in others that Pasternak met with Roy Rose to discuss the sketch of Cooper? You also said that he specifically told Pasternak of a facial feature that he was attempting to depict, and before Pasternak could tell you what this feature was, you jumped the gun and told Pasternak what Rose had said? Do I understand you well?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Skyjack71, didn't you mention on several occasions in this forum & in others that Pasternak met with Roy Rose to discuss the sketch of Cooper? You also said that he specifically told Pasternak of a facial feature that he was attempting to depict, and before Pasternak could tell you what this feature was, you jumped the gun and told Pasternak what Rose had said? Do I understand you well?

______________________________________________
I do not know the name of the man, but will put a
call to Doug NOW----hold on. Just Hold on
I don't know if he told me the name or the artist and if he did it didn't seem important. So I never say anything until I know for sure.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

I know what the grudge was now. He left the message on the plane...................................................................
The FBI didn't get it.
Now they will.
Maybe I am off on another Wild Goose Chase, but I don't think I am..................................................
Sorry this is all I can say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I got phone calls to make.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[awsee1 0]

Quote

Please see pages 40-42 for the recent discussion of Mayfield. You were making posts in those pages, so I don't understand the confusion.

Some people had been rather acerbic with me in PM. I mistook you for one of those PMs and on rewind I realize you weren't one of them.

Quote

In 1988, Florence Schaffner helped to create a new composite sketch of Dan Cooper. This was filmed by Unsolved Mysteries. This sketch was posted on this forum in late November/early December.

Regardless of what your theory is on the case, this is
recommended viewing. There are a couple of things about that episode frozen in time. I watched it again last night and can't be thankful enough that it was made. First, it's one of the few interviews (if not the only?) Florence has given outside the FBI. I seriously doubt she'll give another. Second there is some pretty valuable insight into the case. And yes, there is the sketch, and it's not just the sketch, but what Flo has to say about it. I just don't think it can be written off, especially if you understand the dynamics. Never "write off" anything.... evaluate, weigh, re-sample, re-evaluate, context, and and work with whatever you're given.

Quote

Interesting theories regarding the different sketches. "stick" figure sketch and "anyone" sketch. I always thought the sketch that could fit almost anyone was the less detailed one, known as the Bing Crosby sketch but I learn something new everyday!

One has to wonder just how the Roy Rose original sketch evolved from a rather sinister looking man with a receding hairline, to the everyman sketch. I believe that just about any Caucasian male from 24-50 who does not have a nose like Jimmy Durante, or ears like Prince Charles, or a, giraffe neck, or a broad face like Ernest Borgnine could be favorably compared, hence the term "everyman". There are absolutely no outstanding features whatsoever. We know from "Norjack" that Cooper was a well built man.

I'd like to start a slow crawl. One baby step at a time.

Unfortunately, I was unable to produce the link I intended, that will be forthcoming.

Bren

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I happen to disagree regarding the "everyman" sketch, but I see what you're saying... there aren't any obvious characteristics on it. Maybe Cooper himself didn't have anything that really stood out? I don't know, let's find out...

Ckret, you have stated that Florence & Tina gave nearly identical descriptions of Cooper despite being interviewed in different cities. Is there a way for us to be able to read these descriptions? Did Cooper have a receeding hair-line? Did Cooper have a strong widows peak? Anything else that stood out about Cooper that we may not get in the final sketch?

[Ckret 0]

Mucklow
"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewerly she could see."

Schaffner

"W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."

[Ckret 0]

The attached was created in January 1972 using USAF radar data from McCord, jump time of 8:11 PM based on crew analysis and tests conducted, Wind info from 10,000 MSL to ground, human body trajectories provided by Boeing, time correlation from USAF radar and NWA communication tapes with flight 305 and plane speed and altitude from the flight recorder.

line CDES is the most probable ground path, line GIJK the westernmost ground path and line LMNO the easternmost.

Line AB was believed to be the most probable, however, with the finding of the cash where it was, the landing area had to be further south. It now seems as if line OR would be the most probable areas.

Happy hunting