D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[377 22]

"Another clue to the time is the ground radio teletype log. It my understanding that the teletype will automatically log the time with the communication. The crew typed a message which was logged at 8:12 and mentioned oscillations not a bump."

Did the NWA 727 have radioteletype capabilities? Technically possible but commercially doubtful in those days. ACARS is installed in most airliners today which allows crews to type messages to dispatchers, operations centers, maintenance etc. but it wasnt operating in the 70s.

RTTY (radioteletype) has been in USAF planes since the 50s, but was not widely adopted by commercial airliners as far as I know. Until the advent of ACARS most domestic airliners just had voice comms. So called "phone calls" were usually just VHF radio comms relayed through a "phone patch" on the ground which was the electronic equivalent of holding the radio speaker up to the phone mic and the phone earpiece up to the radio mic.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

Sorry for all the tech detail, but since the timing of the pressure fluctuation is so critical to the exit point estimates, I thought I'd mention that the assumption that the NWA 727 crew actually typed any message to the ground may be in error.

Even if Cooper were an experienced jumper I think he'd do a very short delay before deploying his canopy. If you didnt know for sure if the main canopy was sleeved, you wouldnt want to risk a terminal velocity deployment.

I know ATC radar has picked up jumpers in freefall. Has anyone examined the radar data very very closely to see if there is any speck that might have been Cooper exiting? The Doppler filters would not have excluded the echo since the jumper speed during exit and freefall is high enough to make it through the gate. Once he was under canopy he'd likely be filtered out by the Doppler velocity gate.

Radar can pick up birds quite well. I have personally seen it happen many times aboard commercial fishing boats. Furuno even markets an S band "bird radar" to help tuna seiners find bird flocks that are flying over baitfish or tuna schools. X band radar can also pick up birds reflections but not quite as well as S band. I would have thought a bird to be the ultimate stealth aircraft but they reflect microwaves surprisingly well.

What a great whodunit. Better than anything on TV at the moment.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Beatnik 2]

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1- Anything flappy, even a shirt collar, that is not tucked inside the jumpsuit can beat the crap out of you.
I jump in tshirts because the collar on a golf shirt slapped me the whole time.

2- Anything that is flapping above your head during deployment could become entangle in your lines.

3- If the tie got tangled in your lines before line stretch, you could effectively hang yourself.

The first two points are something that someone with experience would think about or know. An inexperienced jumper wouldn't think that the tie could slap you in the face or that it could entangle in the lines. Look at how many students don't come dressed appropriately when doing their first jump.

The third point is the same thing that I was thinking of. However, being a clip on tie, I would believe that the tie would come off before it was able to you suspend your weight and hang you. With a normal tie I would completely agree that it could hang you, with a clip on, I wouldn't.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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If the tie got tangled in your lines before line stretch, you could effectively hang yourself.

I was with you until this one. If we're assuming Cooper wore the tie, remember that it's a clip on. I've never heard of a person choking out from a clip on, which is why security, police, and secret service personnel often wear them.

From your comments, I almost want to say that Cooper would have been better off keeping his shirt buttoned all the way up... less air under it keeps the collar from flapping as much. I can't say for sure because we don't have the shirt, but a dress shirt tends to have a stiffer collar than a golf shirt.

377, excellent questions. Some of them are over my head, but I liked your thought regarding Cooper's willing to risk chute deployment at terminal velocity if he's unsure if it's sleeved or not.

Skywuffo, aka agent 3, (I love that)... good question. I've pondered it myself, and I suppose I always thought these times were logged using the same watch... but that's impossible since we're using flight control's time & McCord's radar. We would need to know any time differences. I always wanted to use a fudge factor to compensate for this, but you're right... the difference can be more than a minute. Knowing the difference would give us a margin of error.

Ckret, you cannot be serious about disregarding jump points that would suggest Cooper lived. If your goal is to simply find a body in the woods, then okay, but if your goal is to try and figure out what happened, you ought to try and narrow and lock down what we can rely upon and then let the calculations speak for themselves. This is what I was referring to yesterday when I mentioned twisting facts to fit a theory... now if our range is so huge that we can't rule anything out, we're left to pure speculation and a good place to start would be the commonly accepted theory that money showed up miraculously after floating down some streams or creeks; on that, I can agree with what you're saying, but I'm still hopeful we can narrow it down some.

The +/- half mile flight path was utilized in the previous calculation... I had used the Southeastern most jump point possible and came to 9 miles of difference. If the question is a simple matter of "possibilty" then we have to use the most conservative approach possible.... closest possible tributary to closest possible jump point.

If we're getting as precise as a half mile, then we really need better markers that "it flew over X town"... I'd want to see the best estimate, and then factor in some margin of error-or just take the margin of error that's built in, if it already is (like the last one had).

[skyjack71 0]

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I wasn't dismissing a theory, what I was saying was that it was impossible for Cooper to have died utilizing the information we were given. Now, Ckret is expanding the LZ by several minutes... we can no longer say Cooper had to live, now we're back to uncertainty, and back to the drawing board.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxWho else but the FBI would change things? NOW it is the FLIGHT PATH?

They make conclusions about Duane on DNA that is questionable. Note, they do not disclose to the public that the cigarette butts are missing.

Now, that I disclosed information I obtained about the Tie to the FBI - and make it public about a Sworn Affidavit taken recently - the FBI starts to alter information made available...was the information we had before correct or is the NEW information available only because of the information I revealed.

ODD the FBI refused to get sworn statements from 2 witnesses from 1971, whose information was never validated...and even after it has been brought to their attention again in the last 5 yrs.,,

Ckret sends me another email that the FBI investigated Duane. Wants to know if I have seen it - DUH he knows it has not been made available to me. He HAS to know that they did not do the things that I have asked - nor have they followed up on any of the recent information I provided.

When the FBI facts and information continues to change - regarding the flight path and other information - How convenient that they can do this - especially following on the heels of the info I made available recently.

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO DENNY NICKOLS IS - HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY A JUMPER???????????????

[ryoder 1,590]

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Even if Cooper were an experienced jumper I think he'd do a very short delay before deploying his canopy. If you didnt know for sure if the main canopy was sleeved, you wouldnt want to risk a terminal velocity deployment.

Hint: Go back and look at his exit speed. A delay would have been advised to slow him down.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[skyjack71 0]

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The crew referenced a call to Cooper at 8:05 PM when making a statement about the pressure change, stating the pressure bump occurred 5 to 10 minutes after this. They further stated that when they felt the pressure change they were not yet to Portland but definitely in the suburbs.

This is getting to be a real JOKE. Look at that statement and tell me WHY they even looked in the Merwin area AT ALL?

HOW did they KNOW they were in the suburbs if they didn't have a VISUAL? Remember the FBI has always maintained that COOPER could NOT see or visualize his DZ.

By the way - it has been pointed out to me that I said before that my flight to NY was in 1971 and now that I say 1969. It was 1971 - because it was the yr. that I divorced the father of my children.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Well, he obviously can't pull it immediately, or his chute will be torn up, yes? But if he's worried about getting to terminal velocity on freefall, how long does he wait to pull the ripcord?

I know I ought to know the answer, but I truly am a complete whuffo.

[Ckret 0]

"Ckret, you cannot be serious about disregarding jump points that would suggest Cooper lived."

I never posted anything to suggest this, I posted that if you look at the information surrounding the money, Cooper had to have jumped further south than what was originally believed. On the map the furthermost point south is at 8:12 PM, he must have jumped more around 8:15 PM but not after. The crew must have made a mistake in their reporting time of the incident.

The crew knew they were not over Portland and we know, because of where the money was found, it had to have been further south than the 8:12 PM point on the map. That should reveal a new search area, just on the edge of the Washougal.

[JerryBaumchen 1,357]

Hey skyjack,

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HE DOES NOT ADDRESS ONE THING I HAVE ASKED ABOVE - WHY!

Because no one here is paying any attention to you.

Get it? Go away with your idiocy.

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,357]

Hi Safe,

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Well, he obviously can't pull it immediately, or his chute will be torn up, yes?

Nope, a 26 ft Navy conical was designed as a high-speed canopy for Navy pilots. They were/are heavily re-inforced.

We used to remove a lot of the re-inforcing when we used them for reserves in our sport rigs.

JerryBaumchen

[377 22]

Whoops, you are right. He could slow down to terminal by delaying. He could never get a speed below terminal but only between airplane speed and terminal. I was not thinking about horizontal speed. I stand corrected, but he still would likely have delayed deployment to minimize opening shock and during that time I think he would give a radar echo. If I can see a Pelican miles away on an old beat up 4 KW marine radar then ATC radar which is far more powerful and sophisticated could probably get a hit from a falling jumper at quite a good distance. I spoke with a jumper at WFFC who was an air traffic controller and he said they could sometimes see jumpers on their screen. I didnt get any details about distance or other circumstances.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

See below: (is this info accurate???)

Cooper used the cabin phone to give the flight deck their marching orders. He wanted to go to Mexico City, but agreed to a refuelling stop in Reno. He ordered that the plane fly at 10,000 feet, wing flaps set at 15 degrees, airspeed of no more than 150 knots (172 mph). He ordered that the cabin not be pressurised. He said he'd use his wrist altimeter to ensure that his directions were followed.

above from BBC website: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ettkc7d94GUJ:www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A24145490+db+cooper+flaps&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

I am telling what I know and only what I know - the world wants the legend to live on or buy the splatter theory - NO one wants the Truth. What if it were your wife doing everything she can to prove something that you said and it regarded things you said and things you showed her?

[awsee1 0]

That's a very good question. There has been a lot of speculation WRT this case that needs to be verified. 377 your technical knowledge is superb and I hope you'll stick around for the duration of this dig.

I've also got a question that I'm sure would have been answered a long time ago if possible, but I thought I'd ask.

We know that the flight "black box" records all sorts of data with regard to the flight should it ever be needed. Does it not record cockpit communications, and would/could it include the Cooper/cockpit intercom communication?

My guess is that even if it didn't by default, there should have been an option to have turned this on for this particular flight (305).

Bren

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Bren,

This was discussed yesterday.

The gist of it was, these record in 30 minute increments... when the tape is full, it begins to tape over itself, so that the most you'd have is the descent and landing in Reno... all from the time the plane was in the NW would be lost.

[skyjack71 0]

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I never posted anything to suggest this, I posted that if you look at the information surrounding the money, Cooper had to have jumped further south than what was originally believed. On the map the furthermost point south is at 8:12 PM, he must have jumped more around 8:15 PM but not after. The crew must have made a mistake in their reporting time of the incident.

The crew knew they were not over Portland and we know, because of where the money was found, it had to have been further south than the 8:12 PM point on the map. That should reveal a new search area, just on the edge of the Washougal.

One cannot go and change the facts just because of money being found in an area that brings questions to surface. If that can be done then is fair to say that one can say that any file can be change to suit whatever someone wants to prove.
I have never tried to change the flight information - I would never suggest that the flight information was wrong.

[377 22]

IF Cooper had a wrist altimeter that he brought on the plane with him then if not a skydiver he must have at least had some contact with the jumping community. There is so much inaccurate info on the Internet about Cooper so I'd like to know if the alleged wrist altimeter statement was actually made. Perhaps Ckret can chime in on that point. Even if Cooper was lying about having a wrist altimeter, just knowing what one was and knowing that he could monitor cabin pressurization with it speaks volumes about his knowledge, background, etc. All his knowledge about flaps, pressure equalization, rear door operation etc says pilot or at least aircrew or airline mechanic to me. How many people would know that the 727 airstair could be deployed in flight? I am an aviation nut and I didnt know that before he jumped. If he truly used the word "interphone" when describing the cabin communication system then it point to military aviation background. I am hoping he didn't die in the jump but I am beginning to think he might have... but if he died, someone would have noticed the correllation between the hijacking and his disappearance and gossip would have started... so I am pulled in a circle.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/10.html

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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The cabby said the Cooper claimant explained that the cash found on the Columbia River fell from his money pouch during his parachute descent.

You have no idea how close I was to proving this or any similar ideas false. It wasn't until today that we hear of a discrepency in the pressure bump timeline... ah well, back to the drawing board we go!

[awsee1 0]

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I I am hoping he didn't die in the jump but I am beginning to think he might have... but if he died, someone would have noticed the correllation between the hijacking and his disappearance and gossip would have started... so I am pulled in a circle.

One of the assumptions stated by authorities is that he was not an experienced jumper. If this is true, then the simplest assumption is that that ripper would have been pulled sooner rather than later.

A partially deployed/ripped 28' canopy + all the associated HW wouldn't be that difficult to find especially since the placard from the rear door was found. It's just too easy to say he died in the jump.

Combining possibilities w/ the find at Tena's bar ......I think we've got a lot of ground to cover.

Bren

[skyjack71 0]

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IF Cooper had a wrist altimeter that he brought on the plane with him then if not a skydiver he must have at least had some contact with the jumping community. There is so much inaccurate info on the Internet about Cooper so I'd like to know if the alleged wrist altimeter statement was actually made. Perhaps Ckret can chime in on that point. Even if Cooper was lying about having a wrist altimeter, just knowing what one was and knowing that he could monitor cabin pressurization with it speaks volumes about his knowledge, background, etc. j

I am not certain but I believe I am the only one who has stated that Cooper had an Altimeter Watch - simply because Duane told me he used to have one . This was told to me in the yrs prior to my finding the ticket and stub. This was told to me in Virginia Beach, Virginia...Strange I remember where we were at the time - and what we were doing also. This does not indicate that Cooper had such a watch, but Duane did.

Duane knew about the Boeings - and I have tried to tell about this but I am all but ignored. That he had access to the schematics and yes, the first 727 didn't fly until after his accessment to these schematics, but doesn't mean he did not keep abreast of them. As for the other knowledge - about the interphone - he and one of his wives had a job for a period of time cleaning the planes - this job didn't last very long from what he said...this too was told to me prior to our trip to WA. as just part of his life.

Remember that Duane's brother worked as a consultant for Boeing during the war....the brother would not have been involved, but he himself said that Duane had access to the schematics.

[BGill 0]

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I am telling what I know and only what I know - the world wants the legend to live on or buy the splatter theory - NO one wants the Truth. What if it were your wife doing everything she can to prove something that you said and it regarded things you said and things you showed her?

Jo,

From an outsiders perspective, might I add a few thoughts?

We do want the truth. Everyone who is reading this thread wants to know what happened. However, we also have reasonable expectations about what can and should be done. Duane's story definitely has some merit that points towards him being Cooper, however, what is needed for Ckret to come to a conclusion has not yet been presented. Stories are excellent and all, but they are not definitive evidence - just speculation. He needs something concrete, something physical that can be traced back to the crime scene. Until that can be provided, there will be doubt from every one of us.

Ckret works for the government. The government is slow, and sometimes ineffective. I should know, I work for the government too (not FBI, but FDA). I am sure he has protocol to follow and he only has a certain amount of time to work on this case each day. Because of this, he is not going to respond to every question/request/demand you have for him. I don't necessarily think everything you are asking from him is unreasonable, but I think the way you are presenting your requests is very demanding, and he's not going to work with you if you are always badgering him on here. You will see that SafecrackingPLF has been getting his questions answered by Ckret. This isn't because Ckret favors him, it's because he's presenting his arguments in a logical manner. He presents a scenario with an unbiased opinion, he analyzes every possible outcome, then uses facts to rule things out, thus coming to a conclusion. When he has any questions about these facts, Ckret is able to go into the file and present details about what has already been collected. He is also willing to say "ok, my previous hypothesis is incorrect, so let's go back and see where these new facts point us." This is extremely important for credibility.

As for the bolding, underlining and italicizing of almost every sentence... it hurts our eyes to read what you have to say when it's presented like that. I know these are tools used to add emphasis, and I know you believe everything you have to say is important, but it really is too much. That might be why some people have come on here and claimed that you are "crazy". Also, keep in mind that this is the internet, and there are people who read these forums for the pure sake of entertainment, so they will add fuel to the fire for their own amusement. Ignore them.

I look forward to the facts unfolding in this case. If these happen to include Duane, the more the better since we have your stories from way back when that can paint a better picture. But, if you want people to listen to you on here, please be reasonable and understand that all of us are looking for logical, unbiased conclusions that can be backed up by concrete evidence.

[mark 107]

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I am not certain but I believe I am the only one who has stated that Cooper had an Altimeter Watch - simply because Duane told me he used to have one.

Tomorrow, I will look in my 1971 Para-Gear catalog to see what kind of altimeters were common then. IIRC, most altimeters were aircraft altimeters, mounted in panels on chest reserves. That kind of altimeter is about 3 inches in diameter and about 3 inches thick, not suitable for a wrist altimter.

However, if Cooper had an altimeter watch, he would have been a time traveler or space alien. That would explain a lot.

Altimeter watches depend on a pressure transducer, which is electronic, not mechanical. Digital watches first appeared in widespread use in 1978 and electronic aircraft altimeters about ten years later -- and altimeter watches after that.

Mark

[Ckret 0]

It would be pure speculation that Cooper had an altimeter, not saying he didn't, no one saw anything on his wrist or in his briefcase that would lead one to believe he had one.

As far as changing facts, that is not a fact. I am looking at the totality of what we know from the investigation to date and trying to find a logical reason as to how some things don't add up. When the maps were completed in 1972 the money had not been found. if it had, I am sure the crew would have been re-interviewed along with the data to try to explain how the money got to where it was found.

The map is an investigative tool calculated from several pieces of evidence. If one piece is slightly wrong it throws off the map, which could explain why nothing was found on the original search and the money was found where it was.

Can you hear that sucking sound, listen closely, put your ear to the screen. Thats the sound of energy being sucked into a never ending void.

[377 22]

I have a collection of old skydiving altimeters. One of my rare ones is a very small one with CHUTE SHOP labeling on the face. It is from before 1972 but I do not know the exact date. It appears to possibly be a relabeled barometer. It is even a bit smaller than than the wrist altimeters of today such as the Alti III. It came in a custom leather wrist mount panel with a separate mount for a stopwatch. It still works but is a pretty lightly made instrument. I made a few jumps with it for fun but now it is retired... too breakable. It isnt wristwatch size but it is small.

A Google search shows a nice looking mech altimeter wristwatch from 1962.

"1962 was also important to Favre-Leuba as the year when the “Bivouac” was launched, the first wristwatch with an altimeter / barometer function. It was a runaway success and became a must for the major expeditions of the time. Paul-Emile Victor used it in Antarctica, Vaucher and Bonatti for conquering the north face of the Grandes Jorasses in the Alps. Many others followed in their footsteps."

Does the crew interview file quote Cooper as saying he had a wrist altimeter, or is it an "Internet Fact", something that isn't true but has been posted so many times it is accepted as true? Even his mention of a wrist altimeter would be a significant clue, IF it happened.

It is surprising how many people have claimed to be Cooper or claim to have known him. I guess everybody wants a piece of fame.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.