D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[JerryBaumchen 1,357]

Hi dumstuntzz,

Yup, you are correct. I should have looked very closely.

What through me was the color; I have never seen a NB-6 in OD.

JerryBaumchen

[skyjack71 0]

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Hi jose,

" If I remember correctly, the NB-6 container had a shorter pin spacing than a B-4/B-12 container; I 'think' 5 1/2" for the B-4/B-12 & 4 1/2" for the NB-6."
Does this help anyone. Damn I need to hold one of those things.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Zing 2]

Jo, the hardware you have talked about is different than what these guys are talking about. They are referring to the ripcord for opening the containers and the spacing is the distance between the pins on the ripcord that go through cones on the rig flaps and/or pilot chute of the parachute.

Zing Lurks

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo, the hardware you have talked about is different than what these guys are talking about. They are referring to the ripcord for opening the containers and the spacing is the distance between the pins on the ripcord that go through cones on the rig flaps and/or pilot chute of the parachute.

All I knew was that the distance between the to darn big things was not any 5 1/2 in. and that 4 1/2 was stretching it...I do not know anything about chutes or airplanes - so I guess I should just butt out and listen for a while. Wish I could find someone in thsi area to show me these things.

[377 22]

What is Jo recalling? Could it have been sailboat rigging or rock climbing hardware misidentified as chute gear by the person who bought it from her? That stuff is generally smooth shiny and performs functions somewhat similar to parachute hardware. Para Gear's online catalog has a huge assortment of parachute hardware old and new. If what she had was part of a parachute rig certainly something in the Para Gear catalog would at least closely resemble it. I am puzzled about what it was that she had since the buyer said it was part of a parachute, not something an ignorant buyer would be likely to say about a bit of unidentified hardware, but not impossible either. Could be that the piece had nothing to do with parachutes, but I would like to see her find out what it was. If it was part of the gear that was brought to the NWA 727 it would have already been indentified by Jo as there are pretty good pix of NB 6s and chest mount reserves on the net showing all the metal hardware that is on them.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[jose9878 0]

Jerry,

I understand your hesitation regarding the previous NB6 container but it is an NB6. Attached is another picture of an NB6 manufacured in 1958. The harness looks different. I'm going to assume that the previous NB6 was manufactured much later. One thing to remember is that these are not sport containers. They are emergency bail-out rigs.

What stumps me is how the owner missed the training reserve when he gave it to the FBI. We bring up the fact that no experienced skydiver would miss this therefore DB was probably not an experienced skydiver but the DZ owner missed it. I can't see the FBI or the DZ owner giving DB an inoperable parachute (on purpose) because they were not sure DB wasn't going to strap them onto the stewerdess & throw her out.

The other odd thing is that DB jumped an NB6 with no D-rings but he took the training reserve with him. Attaching the money, the reserve & carrying a brief case for an inexperienced jumper seems like too much.

-J

[jose9878 0]

I believe Jo is referring to the legstrap hardware.

Zing is correct.....Jerry & I changed the conversation to the ripcord/pins & cones.

[Orange1 0]

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What stumps me is how the owner missed the training reserve when he gave it to the FBI. We bring up the fact that no experienced skydiver would miss this therefore DB was probably not an experienced skydiver but the DZ owner missed it. I can't see the FBI or the DZ owner giving DB an inoperable parachute (on purpose) because they were not sure DB wasn't going to strap them onto the stewerdess & throw her out.

Now that is a very interesting observation. Not sure what to make of it cos it might lead to all sorts of speculation...but it certainly is an interesting observation.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[AggieDave 6]

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Now that is a very interesting observation. Not sure what to make of it cos it might lead to all sorts of speculation...but it certainly is an interesting observation.

Unless it was preplanned in conjunction with that DZO and the contents of the fake reserve were left on the plane or thrown out the back of the plane and was trash in the first place. It would be a very handy place to put a stack of cash...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ltdiver 3]

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What stumps me is how the owner missed the training reserve when he gave it to the FBI. We bring up the fact that no experienced skydiver would miss this therefore DB was probably not an experienced skydiver but the DZ owner missed it. I can't see the FBI or the DZ owner giving DB an inoperable parachute (on purpose) because they were not sure DB wasn't going to strap them onto the stewerdess & throw her out.

Now that is a very interesting observation. Not sure what to make of it cos it might lead to all sorts of speculation...but it certainly is an interesting observation.

It -had- been said that when the rigs were requested by the FBI the owner did not know what they would be used for. He sent what was requested, but nothing was said about the gear having to be air worthy. Is this still the case, or has more information on this transaction come to light?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[jose9878 0]

Which leads me to ask......What did the FBI request from the DZO?

If 2 front chutes (I don't recall them being called reserves) were requested why would a DZO provide 1 front chute & 1 training device? Something still doesn't add up unless the DZO missed it???


edit to clear up the request.

[Ckret 0]

The chutes were discussed several pages ago. It seems as if it would be very helpful if dropzone could make DB Cooper it's own forum, then break all the post into separate threads ie, the jump, the money, the sketch and so on. I think eventually this could be very good for hits on this site and it would help to keep moving things forward.

Any thoughts, who is in charge here? Anyone have pull with that person.

[ltdiver 3]

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The chutes were discussed several pages ago.

And thus my post directing him to this information....
ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Guru312 0]

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...
The other odd thing is that DB jumped an NB6 with no D-rings but he took the training reserve with him. Attaching the money, the reserve & carrying a brief case for an inexperienced jumper seems like too much.

I'll say too much. Way too much.

Much of the evidence points to DB having little or no jump experience and probably no rigging experience.

I have about 300 jumps using the NB6 or similar Army counterpart. All of those jumps were with D-rings for reserve attach points to the harness as well as a belly-band to secure the reserve.

Anyone here who made an extended freefall with an NB6 and without the belly-band very securely attached can vouch for how the reserve flops around.

Now, imagine using pieces of 550 cord to tie on the reserve AND the bag of money. Since we are assuming he was a low jump or none jumper person, and non-rigger, he wouldn't know how to start securing that mess...let allow doing a decent job.

The scenario I see is him stumbling down the stairs with a rat's nest of suspension line not holding a damn thing together.

The "pressure bump" we've read about was really his ass smacking the stairs as he tumbled out into the prop blast...while the money, the reserve and the briefcase are torn from his body.

I can't imagine him having his act together enough to pull the ripcord.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[quade 4]

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The chutes were discussed several pages ago. It seems as if it would be very helpful if dropzone could make DB Cooper it's own forum, then break all the post into separate threads ie, the jump, the money, the sketch and so on. I think eventually this could be very good for hits on this site and it would help to keep moving things forward.

Any thoughts, who is in charge here? Anyone have pull with that person.

You're actually quite lucky we haven't ditched the entire thing altogether so far.


The reality is that DB Cooper, while fascinating to a few specific individuals is simply not that important in the great wide world of skydiving.

Nothing DB Cooper did is really all that terribly important. It's fun trivia, but is about as important and instructive to the skydiving world the average UFO sighting is to NASA.

He is, in fact for the purposes of skydiving, probably best left as a mythical figure and the "mystery" never solved.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

more from the NWA 727 Captain I queried:


You question intrigued me so I checked with another old time and he wrote this:

"NWA had a very sophisticated system of communications in our early years. It was called “Company Radio”. We actually had radio operators that we called out/off, in/out times to and coordinated gate info/mx/flight pay times, etc. thru these radio operators. Very detailed for the times. If we had problems in the air, we called “company radio” and they forwarded all info. The Second Officer was required to monitor “Company Radio” at all times. It would have been normal for the S/O to call in to “Company Radio” with any Hi-Jack problem from the beginning. The radio operator probably sent a telex message to everyone he/she could think of, so a Telex message probably existed but not from the airplane. It came as a forward from these guys that sat and listened to a radio for eight hours a day and documented all activities. I have no doubt that a telex existed, but not from the airplane."
I was close but not exact. What the agent has is the teletype from the radio network.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

DB Cooper is on the back burner for me as well, and certainly not on anyones radar for the FBI so I understand. However, (and this may not matter either) if the site is looking for hits to increase ad revenue it might be a way to draw folks in and of course from my own selfish needs may draw that person in that could have part of the answer I am looking for.

[Ckret 0]

I thought that as well, because it is a teletype and it is different from the company radio log. But as i was re-reading the teletype there is a difference in the responses and transmissions. In other words it is easy to see that the person transmitting/receiving for "305" is not the same as the person transmitting/receiving for mpls fltops. I'll scan a few pages and post it so we can solve this mystery.

Finally, something about the Cooper case we can solve. Unfortunately it means nothing but perhaps its a first step.

[itllclear 1]

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something about the Cooper case we can solve.

Do you have a list of military who served as loadmasters and
1) Were at one time stationed in the NW (McCord?)
2) Discharged in the period a couple of years prior to the incident?

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[Ckret 0]

No list and I can't imagine one is readily available today.

Attached is a page from the teletype log.

[itllclear 1]

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No list and I can't imagine one is readily available today.

Too bad no one thought of that in 1971.

Of course the operative word is "readily"

The FBI is one of a few organizations that would be allowed access to the info. It's probably somewhere, just a matter of time and money to dig though the files.

Where are your "new hires" with low GS #'s who need a project?

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[377 22]

Ckret,

Gotta admit that the TTY transcript sure does look like a first person crew report direct from the flight deck, BUT EVERY source I have (flight manuals for 70s era 727s (not NWA though), talks with several old time airline pilots, online searching) says no RTTY gear was carried by domestic 727s in 1971. I'll investigate further and we will get a definite answer. The RTTY question is solvable, but unfortunately is not a pivotal issue. It just skews the estimated exit time a bit.

The NWA Company Radio operators may have very quickly transcribed what they heard so we might be talking about substantially less than a minute delay between what the crew said on VHF voice and what shows up on a TTY printout. Just back plot the exit point by the estimated delay between crew voice report and radio operator transcription.

Are any raw radar tapes available from McCord from that night? Bet Cooper's exit is on them, hard to find but there. We know that 1970s era military and civil ATC radar could see jumpers (and even accurately count them) from distances of at least 50 miles. You might even be able to tell when Cooper deployed if his echo is filtered out by the Doppler filters prior to the time you would expect in a continuous freefall from the 727. At some point his forward velocity would decay below the filter cutoff and his vertical freefall velocity appears as almost zero velocity to a distant ATC radar so his echo is blocked by the filter and disappears. If his echo disappears before you would expect in an unbroken freefall, that is probably indicates canopy deployment.

My own jet exit experience from a DC9-21 tells me that Cooper tumbled wildly and probably lost anything he carried that wasnt inside his clothing. I wore my goggles extra tight and they were stripped off my face. My container is normally tight and stable yet on that jet jump the exit photo shows the flaps bowing out trying to come apart. He may have survived the jump but he very likely lost any external payload. I'd guess our exit speed was below the NWA 727 speed, but I dont know for sure.
Perris jumps their jet from time to time. It wouldnt be expensive to simulate Cooper's payload (to the extent we can make and educated guess about how it was configured) and see if it stays with the jumper.

To me, the fact that some of the money bundles were found intact argue strongly for in flight detachment of a bag or Cooper's death. If he landed alive with all the money I just cannot come up with a likely explanation about how the found money ended up where it did.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Since you prefer not to verify your information with Himmelsbach or the Co-pilot - this results in too much speculation...as to DZ. Why not do the right thing?

(verification of information and not your interpretation) would speed things along and not destroy a good thread that everyone can enjoy and participate in. Newcomers and casual posters plus all of the Non Posters are what keeps this thread going.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

It appears to me that these transcripts are from someone sitting in a room somewhere recording the main points discussed via radio. I don't think these are from the second officer, but just my impression.

I'm looking forward to the next few pages.

377, I'm working on a revised analysis of the landing zone that will take the timeline out of consideration (at least for the most part). Perhaps it will get posted tonight some time.

[newbie2jumping 0]

Jo,
I have followed this thread for a very long time and have read EVERY single post!

In the beginning you came off as a lady asking for help looking for information. The original purpose of your post here has been answered (by no answer). You asked if any skydivers knew Duane Weber...silence is it's own answer. Since then you have given several other alias's of Duane, one very recently, and still you get silence on the names.

I continued to read as you were sometimes very rudely attacked and you continued to post pleading for help looking for information.

In the more recent months (since Ckret arrived here) you have become very abrupt and aggressive and have alienated many of the skydivers who tried to help you! Many times you have stated that this would be your final post...but yet you continue to come back.

You make demands of Ckret that are very much out of line. You get mad that he ignores your posts, but you also ignore the skydivers posts when they ask/tell you to please stop using all the underlines, bolds, caps and definitely the smilies which make your posts hard to read! If you would step back and look at this from an outsiders point of view you might understand what many skydivers have been trying to tell you.

Ckret has a job as an FBI agent which primarily involves current cases. Imagine if you were in a bank that was just held up and found out that the FBI agent assigned to your case was too busy trying to solve a case that is over 30 years old...he would get back to your case as soon as possible!

Ckret has many suspects, information, clues which need to slowly and methodically be put together while still doing his work he is assigned to, solving robberies. You get mad when anyone says it could be someone else. You get mad when people don't answer you, but again, sometimes silence is it's own answer. You get mad when Ckret does not drop what he's doing to bow down to your every whim, wish, need, want! You constantly are adding bits and pieces to your story. You say that you have never withheld information, yet I constantly find new bits of info in your posts...do you really discover something new almost every week? You have no problem immediately dismissing other suspects for the slightest reason but cannot stand anyone dismissing Duane for any reason either.

Please step back, calm down, and maybe let people who know what they are talking about (especially on the technical side) work on helping to figure this out.

In the beginning I thought you had a strong case for Duane, but many of your rants have made me think otherwise at times. No matter what I look forward to more being revealed. Good luck in your search for happiness Jo!